RUST murder By accident? / Did NRA training Cause the Rust Accident?

[ponderingturtle]

Seems to me the issue is Baldwin not following basic gun-safety, failing to inspect the weapon when it was handed to him to ensure that it was either not loaded, or loaded with dud-rounds instead of live ammunition.

Guns are straight-forward, especially revolvers. The FBI is overkill in this case. If the gun is in your hand it is your responsibility. Period.

Got it movies shouldn't bother with armorers.

Shifting the responsibility for maintaining tools and conditions of safety is something that is frequently outsourced from people with highly specialized skill sets. Be they surgeons who expect things to be sterilized properly and so forth to just about any other thing. What is it about guns that precludes this methodology of safety? It seems like people take rule that works for most situations and apply it to all situations

You should go on and complain about C&Arsenal when they hand guns back and forth with out checking that it isn't loaded each time. They clearly fail to follow basic gun safety and so why would anyone trust them for their history?

 

[dudalb]

Conspriacy crap is no better coming from the left then the right.

 

[rockinkt]

Shotgun Primers are often used in 45 long Colt Reloads, some of those can go off easily.
http://youtu.be/6Kx2L_5w4NU

That video has nothing to do with your silly claim of easy shotgun primer ignition!
It was an absolute waste of time!!!

Having shot and reloaded for fast draw - I am well aware that shotgun primers are used to propel the wax projectile. That is a very well known fact in pistol shooting and training.

Your outrageous claim that "some shotgun primers can go off quite easily" is absolute nonsense. Such a dangerous product would not be allowed in factories or sold to consumers due to the inherent safety concerns.
As a matter of fact - pistol primers have thinner and somewhat softer primer cups than their rifle or shotgun counterparts due to the relatively weaker striking force of many pistols.

Since you have wasted over 6 minutes of my time watching a completely useless video - as well as my time in reading and responding to your incredibly outrageous versions of "What if?" - I've decided I'm no longer going to waste any more of my time responding to your posts.

 

[rockinkt]

Got it movies shouldn't bother with armorers.

Shifting the responsibility for maintaining tools and conditions of safety is something that is frequently outsourced from people with highly specialized skill sets. Be they surgeons who expect things to be sterilized properly and so forth to just about any other thing. What is it about guns that precludes this methodology of safety? It seems like people take rule that works for most situations and apply it to all situations

You should go on and complain about C&Arsenal when they hand guns back and forth with out checking that it isn't loaded each time. They clearly fail to follow basic gun safety and so why would anyone trust them for their history?

The surgeon and whoever else that is actually using the scalpel or end product in your analogy is obviously doing it according to "best practice" and not using it in a dangerous and recognized unsafe manner. Therefore they cannot be held culpable for something that is totally beyond their control.

Baldwin did not check or use the firearm according to universally accepted standards of "best practice" and safe use. That is why he should be held accountable for his negligent actions.

BTW - just because some people are idiots and don't do things right does not make it a good idea or something to be used as an example of proper safe use.
I was taught by my parents at a very young age that just because others are doing idiotic things that it didn't mean that I should too.

 

[Shrinker]

Baldwin did not check or use the firearm according to universally accepted standards of "best practice" and safe use. That is why he should be held accountable for his negligent actions.

They are not universally accepted standards because they do not apply on film sets. I know this, because I work on film sets and I've been handed weapons I'd never normally get to handle, and I've read the gun safety risk assessments.

Film sets are not shooting ranges, they are industrial workplaces with all manner of things/behaviours which would not be allowed in regular life, for example unsafe vehicles, explosives, high ledges with handrails which are designed to break when leant against.

An actor is required to do as directed, which often means trusting the assigned safety expert over his or her own instincts. Requiring an actor to always check a weapon handed to them is unworkable, because, for example, the weapon may be handed to them in the middle of a scene by another actor. An actor may be required to load a gun using ammo given by another actor from their pocket or bag. That actor may be required to point that gun at another actor and pull the trigger. That actor may be too young to be trusted with a gun, or otherwise unqualified. This is why gun range 'best practices' don't work on a film set. What would be considered unsafe unhandling on a gun range, is virtually required behaviour on a film set. That is why gun safety is handed very differently by ensuring the weapons are safe before they go onto the set so there are no limits placed on what the actor can or can't do with that weapon.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Conspriacy crap is no better coming from the left then the right.

Right or Left it's still conspiracy theories.

 

[Steve]

They are not universally accepted standards because they do not apply on film sets. I know this, because I work on film sets and I've been handed weapons I'd never normally get to handle, and I've read the gun safety risk assessments.

Film sets are not shooting ranges, they are industrial workplaces with all manner of things/behaviours which would not be allowed in regular life, for example unsafe vehicles, explosives, high ledges with handrails which are designed to break when leant against.

An actor is required to do as directed, which often means trusting the assigned safety expert over his or her own instincts. Requiring an actor to always check a weapon handed to them is unworkable, because, for example, the weapon may be handed to them in the middle of a scene by another actor. An actor may be required to load a gun using ammo given by another actor from their pocket or bag. That actor may be required to point that gun at another actor and pull the trigger. That actor may be too young to be trusted with a gun, or otherwise unqualified. This is why gun range 'best practices' don't work on a film set. What would be considered unsafe unhandling on a gun range, is virtually required behaviour on a film set. That is why gun safety is handed very differently by ensuring the weapons are safe before they go onto the set so there are no limits placed on what the actor can or can't do with that weapon.

And that is a large part of the problem that led to this shooting. If you are going to handle a lethal weapon learn how to do it properly properly. Take personal responsibility for the lethal weapon in your hand. There should be no exceptions. Especially not for actors, who by no means have a reputation as the brightest bulbs. The armorer on site should have the responsibility of showing everyone on site the proper procedure for handling weapons - "If I hand you a weapon the safety procedure you must immediately follow is...."

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

That video has nothing to do with your silly claim of easy shotgun primer ignition!
It was an absolute waste of time!!!

Having shot and reloaded for fast draw - I am well aware that shotgun primers are used to propel the wax projectile. That is a very well known fact in pistol shooting and training.

Your outrageous claim that "some shotgun primers can go off quite easily" is absolute nonsense. Such a dangerous product would not be allowed in factories or sold to consumers due to the inherent safety concerns.
As a matter of fact - pistol primers have thinner and somewhat softer primer cups than their rifle or shotgun counterparts due to the relatively weaker striking force of many pistols.

Since you have wasted over 6 minutes of my time watching a completely useless video - as well as my time in reading and responding to your incredibly outrageous versions of "What if?" - I've decided I'm no longer going to waste any more of my time responding to your posts.

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't there some lead free Aluminum based Primers for shot guns that were recalled because of exactly that malfunction?
Looking for the Article now.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And that is a large part of the problem that led to this shooting. If you are going to handle a lethal weapon learn how to do it properly properly. Take personal responsibility for the lethal weapon in your hand. There should be no exceptions. Especially not for actors, who by no means have a reputation as the brightest bulbs. The armorer on site should have the responsibility of showing everyone on site the proper procedure for handling weapons - "If I hand you a weapon the safety procedure you must immediately follow is...."

Actually just making all the Dummy cartridges have the Primers replaced with Green plastic could have prevented this accident.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And that is a large part of the problem that led to this shooting. If you are going to handle a lethal weapon learn how to do it properly properly. Take personal responsibility for the lethal weapon in your hand. There should be no exceptions. Especially not for actors, who by no means have a reputation as the brightest bulbs. The armorer on site should have the responsibility of showing everyone on site the proper procedure for handling weapons - "If I hand you a weapon the safety procedure you must immediately follow is...."

As he said Movie sets are not shooting Ranges.

 

[Steve]

Actually just making all the Dummy cartridges have the Primers replaced with Green plastic could have prevented this accident.

Prevented is a strong word when dealing with idiots. But that could have definitely reduced the risk.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Prevented is a strong word when dealing with idiots. But that could have definitely reduced the risk.

Yes and made it easy to CGI the bullets after shooting the Scene, it would also have allowed Baldwin or anyone else too do a Quick gun check just by spinning the Cylinder.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... If you are going to handle a lethal weapon learn how to do it properly properly. Take personal responsibility for the lethal weapon in your hand. There should be no exceptions.

The post you are replying to explained why that is looking at the problem from the wrong direction. The set safety procedures are intended to prevent any actor handling a lethal weapon in the first place, whether it's a light sabre, a hand grenade, stick of dynamite or whatever. The fact that in this case the prop was supposed to look like a loaded gun without really being one, and that on a gun range there are procedures to safely accept real guns seems to be a red herring.

What if the prop had been a stick of dynamite with a lit fuse? Or a car, which might potentially have faulty brakes or innumerable other unsafe parts?

Do you think there should be mandatory cuts for safety checks every time one movie character picks up a gun or hands a gun to another character?

 

[theprestige]

The post you are replying to explained why that is looking at the problem from the wrong direction. The set safety procedures are intended to prevent any actor handling a lethal weapon in the first place, whether it's a light sabre, a hand grenade, stick of dynamite or whatever. The fact that in this case the prop was supposed to look like a loaded gun without really being one, and that on a gun range there are procedures to safely accept real guns seems to be a red herring.

What if the prop had been a stick of dynamite with a lit fuse? Or a car, which might potentially have faulty brakes or innumerable other unsafe parts?

Do you think there should be mandatory cuts for safety checks every time one movie character picks up a gun or hands a gun to another character?

Well I think, at the very least, that the actor driving the car should drive it safely at all times. And not, you know, point it at the DP, floor the accelerator, and hope the Transportation department has kept the brakes well maintained.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The surgeon and whoever else that is actually using the scalpel or end product in your analogy is obviously doing it according to "best practice" and not using it in a dangerous and recognized unsafe manner.

This just sounds like movies should not use realistic looking props when you apply it strictly enough. If they had shot it with just finger guns no one would be hurt either.

The thing is we can point to exactly where the process broke and it should have been caught if they had been following procedure, and this would never have happened if they had followed that. Why the fetish for turning any gun shaped object into a live gun on a firing range.

Remember pretty much exactly the same procedure would be used if the prop was a functioning firearm or a rubber replica.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Well I think, at the very least, that the actor driving the car should drive it safely at all times. And not, you know, point it at the DP, floor the accelerator, and hope the Transportation department has kept the brakes well maintained.

Sure, except when the scene is "character drives car in an unsafe manner" where they put it in gear and stomp on the gas without looking. And nothing happens because it was someone else's job to hold onto the keys and the engine isn't actually running.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sure, except when the scene is "character drives car in an unsafe manner" where they put it in gear and stomp on the gas without looking. And nothing happens because it was someone else's job to hold onto the keys and the engine isn't actually running.

Clearly we need to get rid of such scenes from movies, like realistic gun props. They only way to make the gun owners happy is to make it clear that none of the weapons in the film are real.

 

[theprestige]

Sure, except when the scene is "character drives car in an unsafe manner" where they put it in gear and stomp on the gas without looking. And nothing happens because it was someone else's job to hold onto the keys and the engine isn't actually running.

I'd expect them to make sure the ignition was empty and the engine off, before they floored it. And I'd certainly expect them to look out the windshield and make sure the DP wasn't standing right in front of the car.

And honestly I'd expect them to be in a prop car, simulating driving against a green screen or on a towed trailer, with no functioning controls and perhaps not even a complete automobile. And I'd expect the close-up shots of them putting it in gear and flooring the accelerator to be done by someone else, with the lead themselves perhaps not even on set that day, or even done by the second unit. And I'd expect any practical shots of a car actually being driven unsafely to be done not by the actor, but by a stunt driver on a closed course with strict safety protocols like not having the DP standing right in front of the car. Or anywhere on the course.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Fine. But maybe the analogy is overstretched. My point is that the safety rules on movie sets don't appear to rely on each actor having expertise with whatever prop they're pretending to use. It's someone else's job to ensure they don't, for example, get handed a real hand grenade.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Cars still make a perfect analogy here. Car stunt deaths are monumentally more common than gun prop deaths and while, I hope, every time a car stunt death happens it causes the industry to refine their safety procedures/protocols to be better, it doesn't cause some watershed moment that causes us to rethink the idea of the use of cars in movie production.

Again more people got decapitated by helicopter rotors while filming movie scenes in a 18 month period in the early 80s than have been killed by prop guns... pretty much ever on a timeline worth discussing.