Russia's "near abroad"

[SDC]

Very interesting article in the NY Times today about Luzhkov, mayor of Moscow, and his leading role in the Russian semi-official policy of encouraging ethnic minorities, particularly the Russian one, in the republics of the former Soviet Union. Evidently Luzhkov, who must have at least Putin's tacit approval (the mayor of Moscow is appointed, not elected), sends millions of dollars in support as well as speeches and political work to influence the Russian minority, and other ethnic minorities, to look to the
Russian Fed... and maybe eventually to secede and "rejoin" Russia.

The examples used are chiefly the Ossetian case (the region of the Georgian republic over which the August war was chiefly fought); and which is scarier, the Crimea in Ukraine. With Georgia and the neighboring areas, some may say, "who cares? Far away small countries." But Ukraine is a republic of 50 million plus. As well as very large diaspora communities, including in the US and Canada, which have become prosperous and are very involved in supporting Ukraine. (Sound familiar?) And neighboring states, particularly Poland, have a major stake as well.

Ukraine's history is intertwined with Russia's, of course. It has been said that with Ukraine, Russia is an empire; without, it is just a large country. I haven't looked up the figures, but I think the Russian minority in Ukraine is around a third of the population, concentrated in the eastern part of the country (Kharkov/ Kharkiv), plus Kiev/ Kyiv, and Crimea itself has a Russian majority; it was also part of the Russian republic of the Soviet Union till the 1950s. It still has a huge Russian naval base.

So what is my point. Well, it could get messy. When I say "sounds familiar," above, I was thinking of the Israeli case with the US, and the influence of the Jewish diaspora. But one could also point to other difficult secession matters, such as Quebec and Canada, Scotland and the UK, Belgian Flanders and the rest of that country...

I'm in favor of peaceful development and settlement of such disputes. But I'm not convinced that the Russian leadership is; whether in Moscow or Sevastopol (Crimea).

 

[Oliver]

And the NYT article is this one:

Mayor of Moscow Exports Russia’s New Nationalism
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY

 

[dudalb]

This is scary. I am afraid that the Dark Side of Russian Nationalism is winning out.

 

[Thunder]

Jews for the most part have never asked or even considered cultural and political autonomy in other lands. if we had it, it was usually imposed on us (Pale Settlemant in Poland/Belarus/Ukraine).

 

[MaGZ]

Jews for the most part have never asked or even considered cultural and political autonomy in other lands. if we had it, it was usually imposed on us (Pale Settlemant in Poland/Belarus/Ukraine).

Stalin was looking out for the Jews.

Jewish Autonomous Oblast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

 

[SezMe]

And here I thought from the title this was going to be another Palin thread.

 

[egslim]

Ukraine's history is intertwined with Russia's, of course. It has been said that with Ukraine, Russia is an empire; without, it is just a large country.

On the other hand, Ukraine currently suffers both internal political troubles and the effects of the financial crisis. I'm not sure the country can survive those as an independent nation.

 

[SDC]

Jews for the most part have never asked or even considered cultural and political autonomy in other lands. if we had it, it was usually imposed on us (Pale Settlemant in Poland/Belarus/Ukraine).

This is simply wrong. The Territorialist movement in Russia and Eastern Europe (its best known figure was the historian Simon Dubnov -- which is a reflection of its lack of strength) advocated exactly that. The Bund and other Jewish socialist elements advocated measures of, at least, cultural autonomy. And it was the "Pale of Settlement" -- cherta osedlosti (boundary of settlement) in Russian. The use of "Pale" originally comes, I believe, from the history of the English occupation of Ireland in the medieval period. Only in Russia the boundary kept people in, within the lands of the historic Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, annexed by Russia; in Ireland, it was the boundary which kept the Irish out of the English-ruled lands around Dublin.

Think I have that right.

 

[SDC]

Stalin was looking out for the Jews.

Jewish Autonomous Oblast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Bless [ETA Stalin's/ETA] heart. However, many suggest that the real purpose of the Birobidzhan settlement was to make a superficially plausible appeal to foreign Jews. No one makes a good argument that it actually did much for Jewish development or survival in the USSR.

And don't forget Stalin's post-1945 purges of Jewish writers and cultural figures. And there is reason to believe that before his death, he was planning something on a larger scale.

It's a funny thing. Yesterday, on the request of a professional colleague, I spent some time reading early 1953 issues of a openly and frankly neo-Nazi periodical published in Argentina -- Der Weg/ El Sendero. Stalin was still alive (he died in March, 1953), and the periodical's writers were making the specific argument that Stalin looked out for the Jews, that the executions of Czechoslovak communist leaders who were Jewish by descent was some sort of Jewish-Communist plot...

So Magz, did you read it too? Or [ETA do your posts rely/ETA] on old, tired material?

ps I hope you appreciate my civilty.

 

[SDC]

On the other hand, Ukraine currently suffers both internal political troubles and the effects of the financial crisis. I'm not sure the country can survive those as an independent nation.

Egslim, thank you for your post. I saw Parky's and Magz's and thought the thread was going to spiral out of control. As you see, I assisted in their derails by correcting them. So I probably deserve punishment. What the heck.

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that an independent Ukraine may not be viable. It may well not be viable as an healthy and secure state. However, the direction European states are moving in general is towards the break-up of empires and multinational states; I think it is extremely unlikely that Russia could impose the reverse, and I hope that Putin, at least, is smart enough to understand that. I think a Russian Fed-dominated Ukraine is a distinct possibility though far from inevitable.

There also seems to be a clear political will to independence ... Though how much that means is only a guess. And what will happen with the areas with the strongest Russian ties, particularly the Crimea and the eastern third of the country, well, the article about Luzhkov discussed that.

If areas attempt to secede, or the Russian Fed pushes too hard, it'll be interesting to see how the US and Canadian Ukrainian diasporas, or Poland, attempt to respond.

 

[Bikewer]

Pundits have pointed out that Russia has always been paranoid about it's borders, having little in the way of natural obstacles to invasion.
The "outer states" are seen as a cushion against potential aggression.

The West's protests that "those days are over" and that we're all good friends now do not play well to the Russians, who recall a long history of problems from "friendly" nations.

 

[jmercer]

Folks, let's please keep this thread on-topic; if you want to specifically discuss Jews in Russia, please start another thread. I'm leaving the posts intact since it seems the derail is over.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer

 

[moon1969]

Russia just wants to start a war with Ukraine because Boris Berezovsky funded and supported the Orange Revolution in Ukraine and made sure that Viktor Yanukovych lost and Yulia Tymoshenko and Viktor Yushchenko got into power. George Soros also supported the Orange Revolution. Same thing in Georgia. Because George Soros funded and supported the Rose Revolution and pro-russian Eduard Shevardnadze lost power and pro-american Mikheil Saakashvili got into power. Russia only wants pro-russian leaders like Alexander Lukashenko or Ramzan Kadyrov in the former Soviet Union states. Well Chechnya is still apart of Russia. Its funny how Mikhail Gorbachev defends Putin.

 

[moon1969]

They want the Soviet states back. Russia is trying to start trouble with Poland and Estonia. LOL one Russian news report even claimed that there was an apartheid in Estonia against the russian population.

 

[moon1969]

They even claimed that Finland started the Winter war and not the Soviet Union. Boris Yeltsin was bad for the russian people but atleast Boris Yeltsin didn"t want to bring back the Soviet Union withouth communism like Vladimir Putin does. Too bad Finland had to give up Karelia. Russia also lies when they are trying to claim that Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany.

 

[SDC]

Moon1969, Finland was an ally of Germany for part of the war. Not during the winter war, though. And not all that chummy.

Could you include published references supporting your statements? Russian press or the like would be fine.

 

[CapelDodger]

On the other hand, Ukraine currently suffers both internal political troubles and the effects of the financial crisis. I'm not sure the country can survive those as an independent nation.

Ukraine's in the belly of the IMF beast now, so score one nation for One World Gummint and against Russian Threat.

The Russian lease on Sevastopol is secure because Ukraine needs the rent. The rest of the Crimea probably costs more than it brings in, so I doubt the Russians are salivating over it. It's just one more complication for Ukraine.

Russia can sit back and watch. They can send a Mayor of Moscow to South Ossetia, and rattle chains in Kiev and New York. And it costs next to nothing.

 

[moon1969]

Karelia will always be apart of Finland. Funny how russians always tell one side of the story.

 

[Gurdur]

This is scary. I am afraid that the Dark Side of Russian Nationalism is winning out.

Um. When has Russian "Nationalism" not been on the Dark Side?

Seriously. Russian "nationalism" has always meant vicious attacks on minorities, and Russian imperialism has always meant vicious attacks on everyone weaker.

Really, there seems nothing good to say about Russian nationalism at all, and no good sides to it.

 

[SDC]

Capeldodger, Moon1969, Gurdur: thank you for staying on topic. Unlike a certain Missiles guy who is trying to hijack this thread into one of his "Jews are Evil" rants.

Capeldodger, do you actually rely on the Russian or Ukrainian press? Last I heard, the Sevastopol lease is up in 2017 and the present Ukrainian govt, at least, says it won't renew. Of course 9 years is practically a lifetime in political terms there.

I also am confused by your reference to the IMF and one world government. Could you explain, without sloganeering, how that refers to the present case?