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Russia invades Georgia

egslim said:
One major difference is that the US pays for a significant part of the Georgian armed forces, while Russia makes money selling to Venezuela. Russia is in it for the money, the US apparently has other goals.
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In 2007 however the UK sold weapons to both Russia and Georgia.
 
CapelDodger said:
As you say, there is no material change in status. These were "frozen conflicts" before, and they are now. There's no pressing need to unfreeze them.



They might, just conceivably, start asking themselves how much they really care about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Is a display of manhood by some chancer in Tblisi really worth all this aggro? And the bloated military budget? Why not modus vivendi and make some serious money out of the oil bonanza?
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Ya know the bottom line for me is after world war 2 Russia's claim to any country was blood and money, so why is it the U.S. never did that? Throw in South Korea, South Vietnam, Panama, and Grenada. And now Afghanistan and Iraq with all our blood and money we'll not claim them as "OURS". It's because Russia is held to a different standard. Lets keep in mind who invaded Afghanistan for an apparent land grab, how many innocent people died does anyone even care?, how many were tortured, who cares? How about Chechnya does anyone even doubt Russian brutality who cares? Who counts the victims, no one. And now Georgia. In an earlier post you cheer Russia being back with their attack on Georgia, I have a different view.
 
mr rosewater said:
Ya know the bottom line for me is after world war 2 Russia's claim to any country was blood and money, so why is it the U.S. never did that? Throw in South Korea, South Vietnam, Panama, and Grenada. And now Afghanistan and Iraq with all our blood and money we'll not claim them as "OURS".
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You simply installed evil dictators that acted as your "puppets" (while exterminating thousands of innocent civilians)

mr rosewater said:
It's because Russia is held to a different standard. Lets keep in mind who invaded Afghanistan for an apparent land grab, how many innocent people died does anyone even care?, how many were tortured, who cares? How about Chechnya does anyone even doubt Russian brutality who cares?
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I care.
As well as all the victim that Noriega, that was helped by the CIA when Bush Sr. was the CIA chief.
But you only care about Russia, do not you?

mr rosewater said:
Who counts the victims, no one. And now Georgia. In an earlier post you cheer Russia being back with their attack on Georgia, I have a different view.
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The view that America is right and the rest of the world wrong
 
CapelDodger said:
Is a display of manhood by some chancer in Tblisi really worth all this aggro? And the bloated military budget? Why not modus vivendi and make some serious money out of the oil bonanza?
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Because too many people use testosterone for brains. Nationalism and democracy can make a dangerous mixture.
 
mr rosewater said:
Ya know the bottom line for me is after world war 2 Russia's claim to any country was blood and money, so why is it the U.S. never did that?
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After suffering two major incursions into its territory by Germany within half a century, Russia's major goal was to have a bufferzone to keep future enemies outside its own borders. The US's bufferzones are the Atlantic and the Pacific.

Throw in South Korea, South Vietnam, Panama, and Grenada. And now Afghanistan and Iraq with all our blood and money we'll not claim them as "OURS".
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The USSR suffered over 23 million deaths* from WWII. The US suffered less than half a million. Throw in 50,000 from Vietnam, a negligible 4,000 from Iraq, etc - together somewhere around 0.5 million deaths total, and without almost any domestic destruction.

Compared with the USSR, the US got free seats where blood was concerned in WWII. As for the cost in money, considering the absolute and relative economic booms the US enjoyed due to WWII, that was actually major profit.

It's because Russia is held to a different standard.
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The difference is that the US claims to be the "champion of the free world", that "US leadership is good for the entire world" and the US's proclaimed desire to export its "moral values" everywhere.
Russia makes no such claims.

All people are doing is that they hold both countries to their own self-proclaimed standards. Don't proclaim higher standards if you can't live up to them. Especially if you used them as justification for your actions, because then faillure to live up to them means your actions were unjustified.
 
Matteo Martini said:
Look at the trade volume between Germany and the US..
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Yeah and look at tread between Czech R. and German and between Czech R. and China... what is your point?(May be I missed,but so far I do not see relation...)

ETA:Oh and between USA and Russia or between any other countries.Even in past...
 
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Egslim, could you please recognize that "Russia" and "the USSR/ Soviet Union" are not identical? You seem to be slopping back and forth.

Alternatively, please state that you regard them as identical. Thanks.
 
egslim said:
Because too many people use testosterone for brains. Nationalism and democracy can make a dangerous mixture.
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Nationalism sucks. It's up there with religion and ideology. Things to bliss good people out on so that they'll do bad things for your benefit.

Georgia was born on a wave of nationalism, but that was a generation ago, and this stuff about "territorial integrity" in marginal areas has been pretty frickin' disastrous. The government maintains a bloated military establishment which is manifestly helpless in the face of the Russians, whatever they're gifted by the US. There are masses of refugees from the early 90's that are being left in hopeless limbo because resettling them would recognise the reality - that they aren't going home.

The US could gain more goodwill be rehousing people than by rearming the gummint, and it would be cheaper.
 
SDC said:
Egslim, could you please recognize that "Russia" and "the USSR/ Soviet Union" are not identical? You seem to be slopping back and forth.

Alternatively, please state that you regard them as identical. Thanks.
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egslim referred to Soviet losses in WW2, which were not entirely Russian. They came from all over the USSR.

When the subject shifts to the present, egslim shifts to Russia. You may have missed that.


eta : egslim's initial use of Russia refers to two German incursions, the first of which was in the Great War of 1914-18, before the USSR.
 
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mr rosewater said:
Ya know the bottom line for me is after world war 2 Russia's claim to any country was blood and money, so why is it the U.S. never did that?
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The Soviet claim was purely physical; was the US going to lay claim to France, Belgium, Holland? Kent?

Throw in South Korea ...
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A UN operation.

South Vietnam
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Remind us, what great benefit did the US bestow on the world from Indo-China?

Panama, and Grenada.
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I'm sorry, the giggles have got the better of me at this point.
 
Klimax said:
Yeah and look at tread between Czech R. and German and between Czech R. and China... what is your point?(May be I missed,but so far I do not see relation...)

ETA:Oh and between USA and Russia or between any other countries.Even in past...
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That you are not usually willing to nuke your customer
 
CapelDodger said:
The Soviet claim was purely physical; was the US going to lay claim to France, Belgium, Holland? Kent?


A UN operation


Remind us, what great benefit did the US bestow on the world from Indo-China?


I'm sorry, the giggles have got the better of me at this point.
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1- I'm glad my point wasn't lost on you. Russia had no right to anything.


2- Oh right...sure.


3- I don't know, lost family there, maybe they thought they could recreate the Korean solution? Maybe we should ask a south Korean, or some of the Vietnamese that got out before and after the country fell. Also remind us who helped the north with military aid clean hands an all.



4- This just brings me back to Russia being held to a different standard. After all who built the Berlin wall, and killed so many people seeking freedom? No big deal Russia is back lets cheer!
 
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CapelDodger said:
Mind your own business.
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Nice.

Why does it appear to be such a touchy subject?

If you do support boycotts against Israel (or any country for that matter) then you don't think that who a nation trades with is their business alone.
 
Matteo Martini said:
That you are not usually willing to nuke your customer
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That would be for China,since even US-based companies are having factories in there.And that is good for Germany not USA.(USA would not gain anything and lost many...)

But is not this farly OT?I lurk again and back to topic...
 
Klimax said:
That would be for China,since even US-based companies are having factories in there.And that is good for Germany not USA.(USA would not gain anything and lost many...)

But is not this farly OT?I lurk again and back to topic...
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Well, mine was a reply to a problem that you started quite few posts ago.
If you do not want to continue, OK, let` s go back to the thread
 
gtc said:
Nice.
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It was meant to be discouraging.

Why does it appear to be such a touchy subject?
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I get irritated by people who want to make everything about Israel. "Russia Invades Georgia", that's the thread title. No mention of Israel.

If you do support boycotts against Israel (or any country for that matter) then you don't think that who a nation trades with is their business alone.
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I made no reference to boycotts. Someone (mr rosewater, I think) presented Russian trade with Latin America as evidence that it's trying to establish a strategic influence there. I suggested that it isn't.

Then you went off about Israel and boycotts, for whatever reason you've got. Whatever the problem, it's yours, not mine. I have enough on my plate already, thanks.
 
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