Russia invades Georgia

[Matteo Martini]

Have they left?

So has the US left California and Texas?

Yes really. There is a reason India's nuclear abilities point at more than pakistan.

Did China invade India recently?
Or Pakistan?

they still don't exactly get on.

Did China invade Russia?
Or did the US invade Iraq?

Haven't so far would be closer.

But they did not.
As I said

Doesn't matter. That one child policy while justifiable still creates a demographic mess.

Not your business.
Not even a little bit.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Western nations do have them but to a lesser extent.

Look at the nativity rate in Italy and Japan

 

[Ziggurat]

China spends lots less than America on the military

Well of course they do. Their economy is still significantly smaller.

They have passed Germany this year.
And they will pass Japan in 2-3 years

When your population is an order of magnitude larger, reaching GDP parity isn't impressive.

China average age is very low

Really?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html
Their median age is 33 for men, and 34 for women. For the US, it's 35 and 38, respectively - quite close if you consider the longer life expectancy in the US. Their fertility rate is not as low as some countries, but it's below the US's, and below replacement rate, which means their median age is going to climb faster than ours. But perhaps even more ominously, they've got a serious gender imbalance. A lot of countries have somewhere in the range of 5% more male births than female births, but China's is around 11%. What do you think is going to happen when those excess males hit their 20's and can't find any women? A growing population can absorb much of that stress by having men hook up with women who are younger than them, but that won't work when you have both a huge gender imbalance AND a shrinking population. Will they all settle down to become productive bachelors, supporting their two parents and four grandparents without any siblings?

 

[CapelDodger]

China is also behaveing nothing like a conventional communist nation with their heavily state run industries and low to zero tollerence for private enterprise. China is probably best viewed as an autocratic/technocratic capitalist state.

In the Confucian "good society" merchants are a necessary evil (and possibly not necessary at all). So neo-Confucian, perhaps? The Praesidum as the Imperial Court, the Party as the Civil Service.

Through history China has had open periods and closed periods. In the open periods enterprise has been encouraged and merchants prospered. Closed periods begin with a fierce reaction by the nobility against the upstarts (who can become extremely rich, for their periods). We are obviously in an open period right now.

Oh, and please remind me ... why are we discussing China? Are they the latest to demand that the Russians get out of Georgia ?

 

[Darth Rotor]

China spends lots less than America on the military

Everyone does. The US has been underwriting global security for 63 years from its own pocket, and simultaneously pursuing its own interests as well. Please list the number of UN missions and UN peacekeeping missions since 1945 that Chinese soldiers have participated in.

Please list the UN humanitarian missions China has undertaken, sponsored, or anchored.

Please comment on China's policy in Darfur.

Not even close to what the US has

Your bias is poor form. Raise your game, eh?

They have passed Germany this year.
And they will pass Japan in 2-3 years

Yes. China is a rising power, to be taken seriously in geopolitics.

Yawn..

Are you boring yourself with your predictability? Your audience is likewise inflicted with ennui.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

So has the US left California and Texas?

Here is a similar question:

Has Italy left Padania?

Has Italy left Campania? (aka Campagna?)

Has Italy left Calabria?

Has Italy left Puglia? (aka Apulia)

Has Italy left Sicilia?

Has Japan left Hokaido?

Has Germany left Bavaria?

Have the French left Corsica?

Clue up.

DR

 

[DC]

i just hope we dont have to give back Europe to the Roman Empire or to macedonia

 

[Matteo Martini]

Here is a similar question:

Has Italy left Padania?

Has Italy left Campania? (aka Campagna?)

Has Italy left Calabria?

Has Italy left Puglia? (aka Apulia)

Has Italy left Sicilia?

Has Japan left Hokaido?

Has Germany left Bavaria?

Have the French left Corsica?

Clue up.

DR

There is no place as "Padania".
Hokaido is Hokkaido
France, not French, has Corsica

And, you should tell all this to Geni

 

[Matteo Martini]

Everyone does. The US has been underwriting global security for 63 years from its own pocket, and simultaneously pursuing its own interests as well.

Slowly slowly you are getting there..

Please list the number of UN missions and UN peacekeeping missions since 1945 that Chinese soldiers have participated in.

Please list the UN humanitarian missions China has undertaken, sponsored, or anchored.

I guess most "peacekeeping missions" are motivated by some political reasons (see Iraq)
And I have never considered China as a "model" of human rights!!

Please comment on China's policy in Darfur.

What is the US really doing for Sudan, except talking?
Why they do not remove Sudan`s government as they did with Saddam

 

[Darth Rotor]

Slowly slowly you are getting there.

I got there a quarter of a century ago. Try to keep up.

I guess most "peacekeeping missions" are motivated by some political reasons (see Iraq)

Iraq isn't a peacekeeping mission.

And I have never considered China as a "model" of human rights!!

We agree. Molto bene!

What is the US really doing for Sudan, except talking? Why they do not remove Sudan`s government as they did with Saddam

You did not answer my question. Please comment on the Chinese policy for Sudan, as China is a UNSC member, and is acting contrarary to UNSC stated objectives. What is their purpose?

Why do think it is the problem of the US to handle the Darfur problem? There is an organization called the Arab League. They are in the region. Why dont' they act? There are African collective security organizations? (Wait, they are on the ground and not doing so hot.)

Why do you insist that Darfur is an American problem? Why don't you call on Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Greece, and EU nations to "do something" about Darfur as you just demanded the US go in and lay a regime change on Sudan?

DR

 

[Ziggurat]

Why do you insist that Darfur is an American problem? Why don't you call on Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Greece, and EU nations to "do something" about Darfur as you just demanded the US go in and lay a regime change on Sudan?

Because he's implicitly acknowleging what he previously explicitly denied: that America is the only country with the capability to project the necessary military force into the region. But he doesn't want us to actually do that either, because that would be yet more US agression. And he wants us to be less agressive. Like China is.

I don't think he even realizes how confused and contradictory his own positions are.

 

[CapelDodger]

The latest situation (and the Russians did set a Friday deadline) is that Russia claims to have dis-uninvaded Georgia according to the cease-fire agreement. Some other people take issue with said claim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7576556.stm

Just a news-bulletin but

Our correspondent says that part of the problem is the extraordinary vagueness of the EU-brokered ceasefire deal, which speaks only of "additional security measures" in "the immediate proximity of South Ossetia" - proximity being defined as a distance of "several kilometres".

must have had Russians spilling borscht in their beards with unrepressible chuckling. With Sarkozy as EU front-man what else was to be expected? Berlusconi would have done a far better job; he understands business.

 

[geni]

So has the US left California and Texas?

I think we base than one on the right to self determination.

Did China invade India recently?
Or Pakistan?

No theya are not stupid enough to try.

Did China invade Russia?

Sure 1969.

Or did the US invade Iraq?

What has the US got to do with anything? Britian invented iraq and has so far invaded twice. Worked out pretty well the first time even if the victory was rather acidental.

But they did not.
As I said

China is working on the capacity to do so.

 

[Matteo Martini]

I think we base than one on the right to self determination.

There was no right of self determination 200-300 years ago, when the European Americans seized the land of the Native Americans.
I do not know if a referendum was held in Texas before the US took that region from Mexico.

No theya are not stupid enough to try.

I agree, the only stupids are the Americans, who go invade Iraq and cause hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths

Sure 1969.

That was a border battle for an unhabitated island.
China did not bomb Moscow as the US bombed Iraq

What has the US got to do with anything? Britian invented iraq and has so far invaded twice. Worked out pretty well the first time even if the victory was rather acidental.

Britain is the 51st state of the US, when it comes to foreign policy.
And 90% of the forces that invaded Iraq were Americans

China is working on the capacity to do so.

Let` s hope that the Chinese will be better than the US, when they will be leader.
I heavily doubt this

 

[Matteo Martini]

[..]You did not answer my question. Please comment on the Chinese policy for Sudan, as China is a UNSC member, and is acting contrarary to UNSC stated objectives. What is their purpose?

Why do think it is the problem of the US to handle the Darfur problem? There is an organization called the Arab League. They are in the region. Why dont' they act? There are African collective security organizations? (Wait, they are on the ground and not doing so hot.)

Why do you insist that Darfur is an American problem? Why don't you call on Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Greece, and EU nations to "do something" about Darfur as you just demanded the US go in and lay a regime change on Sudan?

DR

I agree but there is a point I would like to underline.
Neither France, nor Italy, nor Greece, not even China and Russia claim that they are the "leaader of the world".
China does not have military bases all around the world, America has.
China does not intervene so much and meddles with foreign governments on the other side of the world, America does.
If America did not make the above ridiculous claims, and just recognize that they behave, in foreign policy, as bad as any other nation, then we would not disagree.

[..]But he doesn't want us to actually do that either, because that would be yet more US agression. [..]

But the invasion of Iraq (as long as a long list of other nations) was not an aggression?

 

[geni]

There was no right of self determination 200-300 years ago, when the European Americans seized the land of the Native Americans.
I do not know if a referendum was held in Texas before the US took that region from Mexico.

No but it's pretty clear which way a referendum would go if held today.

I agree, the only stupids are the Americans, who go invade Iraq and cause hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths

Well china has tended to manage to rack up a decent civilian death count internaly.

That was a border battle for an unhabitated island.
China did not bomb Moscow as the US bombed Iraq

Well no because russia would have responded with nuclear weapons and getting your country reduced to glowing bedrock is not widely considered to be a posertive outcome.

Britain is the 51st state of the US, when it comes to foreign policy.

I seem to recall that the UK has been to war with the US (once or twice it depends how you define US)

And 90% of the forces that invaded Iraq were Americans

This time.

Let` s hope that the Chinese will be better than the US, when they will be leader.

Much better without all those anoying principles like democracy and human rights china wouldn't have to worry about civilian casulties. Say what you like about genocide its an effective way of dealing with insergents.

 

[Matteo Martini]

No but it's pretty clear which way a referendum would go if held today.

Not the same thing

Well china has tended to manage to rack up a decent civilian death count internaly.

I do not consider China a model for human rights.
But they do not claim they are the leaders of the world, anyway..

Well no because russia would have responded with nuclear weapons and getting your country reduced to glowing bedrock is not widely considered to be a posertive outcome.

So we are back to point one (is that the way of saying?)
China did not invade* foreign countries recently
*with few exceptions, maybe, I dunno

I seem to recall that the UK has been to war with the US (once or twice it depends how you define US)

And North Italy with South Italy during the Roman times, depends how you define Italy..

This time.

Yes.

Much better without all those anoying principles like democracy and human rights china wouldn't have to worry about civilian casulties. Say what you like about genocide its an effective way of dealing with insergents.

I do not particularly admire China.
This is why I talk

 

[Darth Rotor]

I agree but there is a point I would like to underline.

Neither France, nor Italy, nor Greece, not even China and Russia claim that they are the "leaader of the world".
China does not have military bases all around the world, America has.

Check the last sixty years of history, since you randomly went back to 200-300 years ago on the other point.

What nation was, by default and position, the leader of the free world, once WW II was over and a new global power calculus was in place? America.

America got used to it, even when factions within our own nation complained that we should Not Be The World's Policemen. (Look up Army Specialist Michael New for an interesting case on an American soldier who refused to serve, on the basis that he was not as an American required to wear a UN uniform, that fashion emergency known as the blue beret . . . )

The US is a leader in this world, whether you like it or not. That mantle was placed on America's shoulders by circumstances, and of course any number of American leaders have embraced that role. Some fools even demand leadership from America, on the basis of "from great power comes great responsibility." I reject that, as with great power comes great flexibility. Only.

Your jealousy of America's position as a leader, due to power, is noted. Get Over It.

If America did not make the above ridiculous claims, and just recognize that they behave, in foreign policy, as bad as any other nation, then we would not disagree.

Then the US contribution to the UN should be drastically reduced, since it is "just another nation."

Right. Keep dreaming.

DR

 

[CapelDodger]

The US is a leader in this world ...

That's debatable. The US is apprently unable to take the initiative in any sphere - not financial, military, nor diplomatic. Not even morally, with Guantanamo, "torture-lite", and Christian Zionists with a hot-line to the White House.

You can't lead if you don't have the initiative and have no chance of gaining it. The Russians kick up a little fuss in the Caucasus, and the bluff is called. Vapid Stars Wars contracts with the Poles just make it more obvious.

I don't make value-judgements. I just call it as I see it.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Check the last sixty years of history, since you randomly went back to 200-300 years ago on the other point.

What nation was, by default and position, the leader of the free world, once WW II was over and a new global power calculus was in place? America.

The Soviet Union claimed that they were the leader of the free world and America was the leader of the capitalist world

America got used to it, even when factions within our own nation complained that we should Not Be The World's Policemen. (Look up Army Specialist Michael New for an interesting case on an American soldier who refused to serve, on the basis that he was not as an American required to wear a UN uniform, that fashion emergency known as the blue beret . . . )

The US is a leader in this world, whether you like it or not.

Do not make me laugh..
You got your ass kicked in Iraq.
You failed to stop Iran making thir nuclear program.
The economy of China is growing 10% and yours is growing 2% and they own a good part of your debt.
And you were not even able to catch Osama Bin Laden.