Russia invades Georgia

[DC]

Why can't we all just get along?

because of politics?

 

[egslim]

Why can't we all just get along?

Because we're intelligent, social primates. So like chimpanzees and gorillas we wage war. It's in our nature.

 

[egslim]

Then I guess since the EU got the US involved in Kosovo we are even?

Kosovo isn't even remotely comparable in scale and importance with Afghanistan and Iraq.

I won't even go into WW2 except that, using your European model, maybe we should have just fought the Japanese since it is they that attacked us.

A Europe consolidated under Nazi power would have been a major threat to US interests - much more dangerous than the USSR ever was.

 

[egslim]

LOL. Is that a fact? So the mighty Russian army just went in to take over an area the size of postage stamp? Hell they already had their "peacekeepers" there. Give me a break.

You may have noticed that taking over a country with a hostile population tends to lead to an insurgence. I read somewhere the US found that out in Afganistan and Iraq.

Unlike Bush, Putin is actually smart. He does not want the mighty Russian army to bleed all over the carpet at great expense for the indeterminate future - you know, like the US army has been doing in Afghanistan and Iraq for a while now.

South Ossetia is different, because the population there is friendly with Russia. But taking over Georgian territory is not in Russia's interest.

 

[egslim]

Tell me, why has Russia tucked its tail and run the the UN?

By your metrics Bush senior tucked its tail after the Gulf War of '90/'91, when he did not occupy the whole of Iraq or at least removed Saddam from power.

Enemy military mostly destroyed, enemy forces removed from disputed territory. All at low cost. Perfect time to get out.

 

[gtc]

Or will it (like the Nazis in Czechoslovakia) be left to Europe to sort out?

I seem to remember the Americans played some minor role in WWII.

Something I've noticed (and wasn't surprised by) is how many people assume that somehow this is all about the US when in reality (there's that word again) it's just another little bust-up in the Caucasus.

Well, you are apparently one of those people:

I'm picking up a scent of the Rumsfeld doctrine, absorbed by osmosis and quite possibly encouraged by a US neocon element.

Hopefully the killing has stopped and life has returned to the long-term background of spousal-abuse and vendetta.

That is the most racist thing I have read all day.

As long as the maniacs are penned-up in the mountains everything's OK.

The Russians are doing everybody a favour by leaning heavily on the Chechens. They're Europe's Pashtuns, and must be held in check. What you mustn't do is hand them the keys to a sovereign nation and hope you can still be friends.

Oops, spoke too soon.

That many Chechen goat-botherers in Afghanistan was a bit of a give-away.

Oh dear, spoke too soon again.

Do you have anything substantial to contribute about the topic, or just empty hostility towards anyone with a different POV than your own?

Why am I not surprised that you would be defending CapelDodger?

Does it concern you that you have aligned yourself with racism like the above?

 

[Big Les]

A mixture of trying to force the international community to act and a likely breakdown of comand and control. Looking at some of the Georgian activity they genuinly thought that Gori was being held.

True. Although the general economy being shown with regard to the truth is pretty staggering on both sides. I've been watching Russia Today, and it's totally one-sided. It's as though politicians in that part of the world feel that you can manufacture truth.

Clearly moving to take/retake SO was suicide on their part, but I'm still trying to work out whether Georgia really did start this in the "shots fired" sense. The Russian claims of genocide/deliberate targetting of civilians (and likewise the Georgian ones in return) just aren't credible.

 

[Cleon]

Why am I not surprised that you would be defending CapelDodger?

Does it concern you that you have aligned yourself with racism like the above?

Odd, I don't recall posting anything "defending" CapelDodger or anything he's posted. Perhaps you can point me to where I did?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Since when does Georgia or Chechnya imply a race rather than a nationality/locality?

 

[egslim]

Since when does Georgia or Chechnya imply a race rather than a nationality/locality?

Or a tribe. As far as I understand it, the whole area there is covered by more or less independent tribes, who really don't like each other. With the small tribal populations, relatively uninhabitable terrain and poor connections to the outside world, the area is doomed to be either made up of tiny, poor, undeveloped and semi-autonomous regions. Or be forced to become part of a big (USSR) or small (Georgia) empire.

Assuming that political reality tends to follow geographic, demographic and environmental conditions - Jared Diamond-style - then it is utterly unrealistic to believe their politics are, or can be similar to ours. That has nothing to do with race.

 

[geni]

http://www.sida.se/sida/jsp/sida.jsp?d=1299&a=19701&language=en_US

Try again. did they support the iraq war? Yes/no? Did the US care?

 

[geni]

LOL. Is that a fact? So the mighty Russian army just went in to take over an area the size of postage stamp? Hell they already had their "peacekeepers" there. Give me a break.

And those peacekeepers were getting killed a fact we are likely to reminded of ad nauseum. Russia can legitimately claim to be somewhat vexed about this fact.

But suppose russia had occupied the entire country. It could have do so. Well it would have faced more serious finger wagging and the problem of occupying a group of people who didn't want to be occupied.

Still if geopolitical concerns are not something you wish to think about then there is strategic position to consider. If georgia holds the two break away areas any Russian attack is likely going to have to be either an amphibious assult which are always risky or an attempt to fight over the mountians. Now Russia could do that but causulties would be rather higher. As it is there is nothing much between Russian forces and Tbilisi.

 

[geni]

Tell me, why has Russia tucked its tail and run the the UN?

UN support always looks good diplomaticaly and what they want can be argued for under a number geopolitical idiologies.

I didn't say that Ukraine was an EU member but Estonia is and it was also in the Georgian capitol last night.

But I only refered to Ukraine's actions as risky. Estonia's might provoke some quiet eye rolling but ultimately they are our nationalistic eastern europeans. Ukraine isn't.

All of the Baltic states are supporting Georgia, all of the Eastern European states are supporting Georgia

None of whom have any power projection abilities

the UK,

To busy in afganistan to do anything.

Denmark, Ireland,

The armed forces of Irland are not significant.

Canada,

Busy in afganistan.

the US, Sweden and others are supporting Georgia and condemning Russia.

Just words. The good old diplomatic formulars that mean sweet FA. Georgia got a little support from Georgians living in Azerbaijan and if you belive the russians from some "black soldiers".

The only countries supporting Russia so far are Cuba, Serbia and Venezuela. Russia is isolated diplomatically and it has now failed in its military objective. I think Putin has been spanked pretty thoroughly.

You missed that most countries have either limited themselves to token condemnation or have released diplomatic boilerplate that is basicaly neutral. Oh and I don't think serbia's statement technicaly includes support but it is a bit hard to tell between all the stuff about Kosovo.

 

[Matteo Martini]

For the vast majority of the 6.6 billion people alive.

So, what is all the fuss for only 2800 and so people who died on Sept. 11?

 

[Matteo Martini]

I strongly disagree.

A multipolar world made up of democracies might well be stable, but the presence of dictatorships skews things. A dictatorship is interested in maintaining its regime in power and/or furthering its ideological goals... unlike democracies which at least have to pay lip service to doing what is best for their citizens.

Mm..
Did not stop America from invading Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua, ..

 

[Matteo Martini]

Appears tp be clashes between regular forces and shots of fleeing civilians by the standards of recent wars pretty decent.

2000+ deaths in South Ossetia
2800 deaths on Sept. 11
I do not see much difference.
Do I?

 

[Matteo Martini]

No but there are some really strong words coming from unusual places such as Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_South_Ossetia_War

Just to make it fair.
Let`s hear what Bolivia` s President Evo Morales has to say about Bush..

Bolivia's new president-elect Evo Morales has branded George W. Bush a "terrorist", and has referred to Condoleezza Rice as "Mrs Condolences" in an exclusive interview for Qatar's News Channel Al-Jazeera
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Bolivia's_new_president-elect_brands_Bush_'the_only_terrorist'

 

[Matteo Martini]

Why can't we all just get along?

Everybody wants oil, and there is not enough oil for anyone..

 

[egslim]

So, what is all the fuss for only 2800 and so people who died on Sept. 11?

People getting killed tends to piss others off, which, depending on who's pissed, may have unpredictable and therefore potentially very nasty consequences.

Georgia being pissed at Russia is inconsequential, because the country is much too weak to cause significant problems.

Russia being pissed off at Georgia, on the other hand, is quite nasty for Georgia as they just found out, but of little significance to the rest of the world.

The US being pissed at Al Qaeda gave us Afghanistan and Iraq, among others. With far-reaching consequences for the entire world.

The "fuss" is often more about its potential consequences than the event itself.

edited to add:
And before you describe 2000+ dead as "very nasty", it kind of pales in comparisson with a nuclear holocaust or WWII-scale conflict.

 

[Matteo Martini]

People getting killed tends to piss others off, which, depending on who's pissed, may have unpredictable and therefore potentially very nasty consequences.

Georgia being pissed at Russia is inconsequential, because the country is much too weak to cause significant problems.

Russia being pissed off at Georgia, on the other hand, is quite nasty for Georgia as they just found out, but of little significance to the rest of the world.

The US being pissed at Al Qaeda gave us Afghanistan and Iraq, among others. With far-reaching consequences for the entire world.

The "fuss" is often more about its potential consequences than the event itself.

I do not really understand what you say now.
I would really understand from you why America (you included, I assume) still sees the attacks on Sept. 11 as one of the major crimes that happened in the recent past, and they talk about it all the time, and now you come out with this:

Objectively the conflict is of little importance. But it may get some people to change their perspective of how the world works.

Little importance for the 2000 people dead?

For the vast majority of the 6.6 billion people alive.

Maybe you consider the life of a fellow citizen worth a lot and the life of a Georgian/South Ossetian worth little/nothing?