Russia invades Georgia

[geni]

Tell me, why would former Soviet states entering NATO be a bad thing?

Depends where they are. The Europe boardering ones are not really a problem because russia will have a very limited logistics at least against the european armies and generaly they are not looking to grab slices of territory russia might have an interest in (moldova is something of an exception). On the other hand the asian ones have far more serious logicists issues and the local forces are far less significant (no german army with reasonable amounts of quality heavy equipement to make the russians lives absolutely miserable).

 

[CapelDodger]

Fixed it for you. You're quite fond of those old Prussians?

It's a love-hate thing, and of course it's not all about Bismarck. That said, something that didn't happen on Bismarck's watch was a general European conflagration.

 

[geni]

You really do pine for the days of the USSR don't you? Those "snarky" little states have as much right to exist in peace as the largest states.

Generaly the key requirement for living in peace for states of all sizes is don't seriously piss of the countries next to you.

Russia has now advanced well into Georgia so it is becoming obvious that Putin is using this as an excuse to bring the entire country under his control. I realise that the Europeans have a long history dealing with these regions and it has been one of throwing the sheep to the bear. It is despicable.

Nope still within artillery range of the breakaway regions and even that appears to be limited to short raids. Well unless you belive the Georgian reports that is and so far they have proven to have little basis in reality.

 

[Gurdur]

Here's a few facts for CapelDodger, in relation to his false claim about there being no medieval Georgian kingdom.

Sheeeeesh, what do they teach kids in school these days?

 

[Texas]

Generaly the key requirement for living in peace for states of all sizes is don't seriously piss of the countries next to you.



.

If that were the case the US would have invaded Mexico and Canada would have invaded the US by now. I am really amazed at how many are making excuses for this invasion after the absolute hell the same people have given the US over Iraq. You don't really believe that Putin is going to stop before Georgia is annexed again do you?

 

[ddt]

The last sentence is dubious. Apart from that, the fact of the medieval kingdom of Georgia -- and also, BTW, Georgia's survival as a cohesive ethnic and linguistic group for over 2000 years -- is beyond all doubt.

The various Georgian kingdoms more-or-less voluntarily agreed to become part of Russia. I don't doubt the existence of the Georgians as a ethnic/linguistic group, but they didn't have a political unity anymore at the time the were subsumed into Russia. I don't bring this forward in any way to disparage the Georgians. They have the right to their state. But if they'd want to, so have the Ossetians, the Ingush, the Chechens, the Dagestans, the Azeris, the Armenians, and whatever more groups that live there and want independence. I'm more - ideologically - a Wilsonian type, but there's also a thing as Realpolitik.

No, it was not just the Khazars whatsover

The Khazars and the Byzantine Empire. After they had weakened the Umayyads, the Georgians and Armenians could (re)assert their influence.

BTW, didn't we do Khazars on another thread? Whatever became of that?

Sorry I haven't come back to that yet.

1) "Some historians" would doubt my existence, yours, and the existence of Churchill.

Haha.

2) Pretty HONKING GREAT BIG "raiding tour", if you ask me, and that thesis of course ignores the fact that full-scale invasion were almost always preceded by prelimary expeditions (when those were successful) at that time.

The Arabs were actually on their way back to Spain when Charles Martell surprised them between Tours and Poitiers. They had their camp full of loot and, well, didn't have the chance to take it back with them .

Maybe they did have the objective to conquer France, but their subsequent incursions didn't go further than Aquitaine and they never could amass as many troops as at Tours.

 

[Texas]

Nope still within artillery range of the breakaway regions and even that appears to be limited to short raids. Well unless you belive the Georgian reports that is and so far they have proven to have little basis in reality.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia_147

ZUGDIDI, Georgia - Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

 

[ddt]

It's a love-hate thing, and of course it's not all about Bismarck. That said, something that didn't happen on Bismarck's watch was a general European conflagration.

For those who don't know: the "fixed" quote was by von Clausewitz. And yes, Bismarck was quite careful to keep Europe in equilibrium. However, he could not prevent (1) that his first master was so stupid to annex Alsace-Lorraine from France, (2) that his second master was so stupid to sack him, and (3) by giving nearly all of Africa away to the other great powers, he sowed the seeds in German Imperial thinking that Germany should compensate for her lack of colonies by even more dominance of Europe.

Sorry for the derail.

 

[gumboot]

well and i think i also agree on your last post.
while i dont know what to think, who is the agressor who is helping, is someone helping someone?

Both sides are aggressors, and both sides are helping themselves.

 

[CapelDodger]

Oh bollocks. Did you do any reading on this at all, or is this just determined bias speaking on your part?

I've been interested in Colchis since I first read Jason and The Argonauts. As a borderland between Slav and Turkic superpowers over the last couple of centuries my attenion has been drawn to the region. The Byzantine connection can hardly be ignored, and it's more than likely that the "kingship" of some Georigian clan was an Imperial grant.

Bollocks again. The mountains wouldn't have stopped them if it wasn't for the people there. The mountains are tough, but there are passes, and it's not the Himalayas we're talking. Sheeeesh.

The people there will have watched in astonishment and looted the corpses left behind.

Logistics. Look it up. Then look up 8thCE Arab supply-trains. See the problem?

Then look up "morale" and "motivation".

Let me know when you've done some actual reading, and then we can talk analysis. BTW, I have no brief for the Georgians at all, but I'm rather interested that you did not answer my question about your rather evident bias at all.

A quick question when did you first hear of the Caucasus? Follow-up question : why do you think you know anything about it?

 

[gumboot]

This is why I am glad I live so far away from the rest of you people. For all your talk of freedom and peace and rights, these big countries couldn't give an iota of a damn about the citizens of the little countries of this world.

It's disgusting.

 

[CapelDodger]

For those who don't know: the "fixed" quote was by von Clausewitz. And yes, Bismarck was quite careful to keep Europe in equilibrium. However, he could not prevent (1) that his first master was so stupid to annex Alsace-Lorraine from France, (2) that his second master was so stupid to sack him, and (3) by giving nearly all of Africa away to the other great powers, he sowed the seeds in German Imperial thinking that Germany should compensate for her lack of colonies by even more dominance of Europe.

Sorry for the derail.

Sorry, schmorry; it's a welcome dip in a cool pool of rationality.

My attention is drifting away from the small war in the Caucasus (fascinating though it is) and towards the response to it. Small wars are an excellent probe of societies on the edge of hysteria. And they don't kill many people

 

[geni]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia_147

Everywhere that article claims russians are is within artillery range of the breakaway areas.

 

[Texas]

This is why I am glad I live so far away from the rest of you people. For all your talk of freedom and peace and rights, these big countries couldn't give an iota of a damn about the citizens of the little countries of this world.

It's disgusting.

I can't say that I blame you.

 

[Gurdur]

I've been interested in Colchis since I first read Jason and The Argonauts. As a borderland between Slav and Turkic superpowers over the last couple of centuries my attenion has been drawn to the region. The Byzantine connection can hardly be ignored, and it's more than likely that the "kingship" of some Georigian clan was an Imperial grant.

Fine. Great. Now tell me why you make such a glaring ******** statement like "There's no historic Georgian Kingdom", a statement whch is either dishonest or horribly ignorant, and then when you get called out on it, all you can do is act like a prat and attack me and sentence structure? Was that really the best you could think of on the spot? Bit of an awfully twattish reply, that one of yours.

It's a ******** claim of yours yet again about the Imperial grant; sheesh, which Imperial power are you talking about? I wouldn't put it past you to be that ignorant. The Byzantines? Pretty defunct by the 11th century; the Russians still paying tribute to the Mongols; the Georgian kingdom existed because it created itself by force. You going to try pretending that King David IV or Queen Tamar were only royal rulers by Byzantine decree (I assume; I hope to god you really don't mean a Czar or something, though given your posts here, you might ). Sheeesh, what are you relying on? Russian disinfo hand-outs done on the back of old cig packets?

If you prefer, I can do monosyllables for you; as it is, normally you are much more rational in your posts, so I want to know the reasons for why your very evident bias. Answer the question.

Logistics. Look it up. Then look up 8thCE Arab supply-trains. See the problem?

You are only displaying massive (and rather astonishing) ignorance all over again. The Arabs in their expansionist period displayed amazing logistics ability; how do you think they conquered so much? Magic?


Hello? Hellloooo? Planet Earth calling you; how do you think the Arabs conquered Iran, Egypt, etc. etc.? Helloooo? Anyone at home in there?

Have you read any proper history at all?

Then look up "morale" and "motivation".

Coming from you, when you appear to be woefully ignorant of Arab military history and early success, I find that rather funny.

A quick question when did you first hear of the Caucasus? Follow-up question : why do you think you know anything about it?

Well, certainly, I obviously know rather more than you do on this and related subjects. Although that's setting the bar rather low.

How about you first explain your very evident bias first, seeing I've asked now three times, and then I answer your questions?

That seems fair to me.

 

[geni]

If that were the case the US would have invaded Mexico

There are a number of parts of the US that belonged to mexico.

and Canada would have invaded the US by now.

It did in that 1812 mess. Generaly it is a bad idea to attack people significantly more powerful than you and canada doesn't dislike the US that much.

I am really amazed at how many are making excuses for this invasion after the absolute hell the same people have given the US over Iraq. You don't really believe that Putin is going to stop before Georgia is annexed again do you?

Anexing Georgia would be dumb. It would be expensive in both lives and money where as russian forces in the breakaway regions will be enough to ensure that Georgia doesn't do anything to significantly displease russia in future.

 

[Gurdur]

.... For all your talk of freedom and peace and rights, these big countries couldn't give an iota of a damn about the citizens of the little countries of this world. It's disgusting.

That part, seconded.

 

[gdnp]

This is why I am glad I live so far away from the rest of you people. For all your talk of freedom and peace and rights, these big countries couldn't give an iota of a damn about the citizens of the little countries of this world.

It's disgusting.

Do you refer to the predilection of big countries invading small countries, or the reticence of big countries to come to the aid of small countries when their rights are violated?

If it's the former, you may have a point.

If it's the latter, please feel free to band together with some other small countries and send troops in to support the Georgian people. Or are only big country's treasury and soldiers expendable?

 

[Gurdur]

The various Georgian kingdoms more-or-less voluntarily agreed to become part of Russia.

Very "less" in some cases.

I don't doubt the existence of the Georgians as a ethnic/linguistic group, but they didn't have a political unity anymore at the time the were subsumed into Russia.

Depends just when you're talking about. The second time Georgia was subsumed into Russia (=conquered and occupied), it was a fully independent country, unified, and relatively modern. 1921!

I don't bring this forward in any way to disparage the Georgians. They have the right to their state. But if they'd want to, so have the Ossetians, the Ingush, the Chechens, the Dagestans, the Azeris, the Armenians, and whatever more groups that live there and want independence.

Agreed. Everyone has a right to national self-determination.

I'm more - ideologically - a Wilsonian type, but there's also a thing as Realpolitik.

How much Realpolitik was the Russian idiocy in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, all the other now-independent states? Or for that matter Vietnam? Or Chechnya, which makes Vietnam look like a friendly picnic?

Realpolitik is supposed to be intelligent and pragmatic, and above all successful, and trying by force to suppress national independence usually ends up in failure.

The Khazars and the Byzantine Empire. After they had weakened the Umayyads, the Georgians and Armenians could (re)assert their influence.

Well, "reasserting their influence" included helping being an effective block to the Arabs in that direction.

Sorry I haven't come back to that yet.

Well, so am I. It was a very interesting discussion, and I kinda wondered if you would carry it on, because I kinda liked it.

The Arabs were actually on their way back to Spain when Charles Martell surprised them between Tours and Poitiers. They had their camp full of loot and, well, didn't have the chance to take it back with them .

Honking big "raiding party", see previous point regarding preliminary raids and so on. Martel did the right thing, as far as dissuasion of Arab possible ambitions there went.

Maybe they did have the objective to conquer France, but their subsequent incursions didn't go further than Aquitaine and they never could amass as many troops as at Tours.

Granted -- but how would it all have turned out had Tours not happened or the Arabs won it?

 

[geni]

That part, seconded.

Alright we give a damn. Belive me we do both because war is bad for the civilians there and geopoliticaly this is not an ideal outcome (for the US and europe anyway Russia is haveing a great time and china probably not to bothered). Now what do you suggest we actualy do? And no all out nuclear war is not an option.