Russell Pickering and 9/11

you say that as if everyone other then yourself is in the 13%, personally i suspect if a similar poll were conducted on JREF (or any intellectual/scientific forum) youd get a number even higher than 86%

agreed, and you should try opening your eyes

Yes - that is my problem, I don't examine things.

Thank you - I have been seeking that insight for 45 years and you just turned the lights on.

I believe in reciprocity and would also like to help you.

Read something besides Gravy's work and even if you only do that, read the actual reports he links to!
 
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It's amazing to me how some folks are completely dumbfounded by the fact one can at the same time dislike Bush and his politics intensely, yet not believe, based on the evidence, that he is guilty of mass murder.

It's almost like we are expected to think he is either a god, or he is an evil mass murderer. Nothing in between,
 
Read something besides Gravy's work and even if you do that only, read the actual reports he links to!
your about as psychic as sylvia browne

actually i havent read anything of gravys except for his LC guide, although i read most of the reports even before he wrote his stuff
 
Yes - that is my problem, I don't examine things.

Thank you - I have been seeking that insight for 45 years and you just turned the lights on.

I believe in reciprocity and would also like to help you.

Read something besides Gravy's work and even if you do that only, read the actual reports he links to!

The same goes for you. You assume that anybody who doesn't belive that 911 was an inside job doesn't examine things. Can it be possible for two people of the same intelligence to examine the same thing but come to different conclusions?

And if so, what does that mean about what the REAL truth is?
 
It's amazing to me how some folks are completely dumbfounded by the fact one can at the same time dislike Bush and his politics intensely, yet not believe, based on the evidence, that he is guilty of mass murder.

It's almost like we are expected to think he is either a god, or he is an evil mass murderer. Nothing in between,

If you know the pretense for invading a country is false, and you have estimates on troop deaths in advance, and you do it anyway and the people die..........
 
Bush is evil. But he's not evil enough to pull off a 9/11 conspiracy. And even if he was sufficiently evil, there's no one on Earth smart enough to fake it and yet stupid enough to fake it in the way CTists like to make up. Why use energy weapons, mini-nukes, etcetera, when you can *gasp* do the same thing by hiring fake terrorists and telling them to hijack a plane. Much less administrative work and fewer things that could go wrong.
 
The same goes for you. You assume that anybody who doesn't belive that 911 was an inside job doesn't examine things. Can it be possible for two people of the same intelligence to examine the same thing but come to different conclusions?

And if so, what does that mean about what the REAL truth is?

Misunderstanding.

In that 86% are probably people who fit the category of "JREFer". That pole was based on degrees of doubt. Not 9/11 conspiracy "believers" versus non believers.

I know people here examine it.

I was more referring to the extremists like Gravy.

Polar opposites are always interesting. The fanatics here are exactly like the conspiracy fanatics - except totally different.

The essence that they share is intolerance, unjustified belief and social identification limiting their ability to think clearly.
 
Russell Rickering is a true hero. His sincere need to understand mirrors my own. I live in NYC and my daughter was near building 7 as it collapsed. I can still hear my voice yelling over her cell, "Turn around and get away from there."
Also the reason she wasn't hurt by the collapse and was in no danger (something her mother wouldn't have known and probably still doesn't) is the fact that the FDNY had created a collapse zone around the building several hours beforehand, why? Becasue the building was showing telltale signs of imminent collapse, isn't that correct Russell?
 
Is Russell in on the money side of LC now?

Russell at least has the most patriotic cover, vs Dylan's fictional film start turned to fraud against those who say they are searching for facts and asking questions, the betrayed truth movement.

My question; Is Russell in on the CT of LC? Or is Russell being used by LC?

My questions are based on the fact LC is a CT using a fictional film to make money off of people like Russell.

Tell me who has not looked forward to hearing Russell Pickering discussing his primary views published recently like; "We should focus on the irrefutable evidence like the demolition of WTC7, the free-fall speed of the towers, Norad, PNAC etc., in other words, things that are WELL documented"

I have looked forward to his well documented evidence. His web site is a disappointment, filled with misleading statements to support his elusive conclusions.
 
If you know the pretense for invading a country is false, and you have estimates on troop deaths in advance, and you do it anyway and the people die..........

So why don't you spend your time arguing about this? Why didn't you get out and campaign against him in any of the last few elections?

The fact is, a lot of people don't know that the pretense for war was false or misleading, and a lot of other people who do know supported the war for their own reasons. Why don't you work on educating the former and trying to convert the latter?

Again, why waste time on this MIHOP/LIHOP BS when there are real issues you could be working on?
 
Bush is evil. But he's not evil enough to pull off a 9/11 conspiracy. And even if he was sufficiently evil, there's no one on Earth smart enough to fake it and yet stupid enough to fake it in the way CTists like to make up. Why use energy weapons, mini-nukes, etcetera, when you can *gasp* do the same thing by hiring fake terrorists and telling them to hijack a plane. Much less administrative work and fewer things that could go wrong.

Is a surgeon evil to the 10,000 cells he sacrifices to save several billion?

The ideology of the PNAC is to save the whole world. They believe without a doubt that what they are doing is good and that the end justifies the means.

There was NO other way for them to have justified their Middle East policy in order to save the world. They had to have the American public behind them. Read Operation Northwoods (just a plan I know).

The greatest amount of good, for the most amount of people, for the longest period of time is not something that finite beings should decide!!
 
That was before any of the videos etc. had been released.

Go ahead and make a list.

(I actually feel sorry for you sometimes.)
Very well.

"I don't make any conclusions," Pickering adds. "I have no partisan interest in this."
False. You certainly do make conclusions, many of which are demonstrably wrong. The ability to make informed conclusions is not related to "partisan interest."

His curiosity was piqued when friends who served on Seattle's urban search and rescue team returned from a Sept. 11 assignment in New York City, bringing questions about what they'd seen. They wondered why World Trade Center building 7 had seemingly collapsed for no reason.
Were any of those people there to see WTC 7 damaged and burning?

Another factor was an article in the 105-year-old Fire Engineering magazine in which the editor expressed outrage that debris was removed without investigating why the buildings had collapsed. The writer also questioned the handling of the investigation.
Bill Manning has never supported CT claims. His complaints were only related to the fire safety of tall buildings.

Also puzzling Pickering were reports by NYC firefighters about secondary explosions in the two towers. When 9-1-1 transcripts were released in 2005 they contained accounts of those explosions.
And had you done what I have done, you could have read and taken notes about those accounts, put them into context, and learned about what the firefighters were describing.
The evidence gave credibility to the questioners who continued their probe.
False. The CTs have shown no evidence that lends credibility to the claim that the USG was involved in planning or executing the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

In his examination of photographs from the attack on the Pentagon, Pickering says he's found only a few images showing parts of the aircraft.
Remember, this interview was in April of 2006. I wrote my guide to Loose Change – a movie that Russell boasts of contributing to – then. Dozens and dozens of photographs of flight 77 parts were available.
Further, the FBI refuses to release evidence of aircraft debris and barred the National Transportation and Safety Board from investigating the scene.
False. As required by law, the FBI was the lead investigating body into the crashes. The NTSB was also involved, and did the crucial analysis of the "black boxes."

The FBI also has 85 videos it refuses to release. One of Pickering's research partners filed a Freedom of Information Act request for them. He says the agency at first denied the existence of the videos and then, on appeal, admitted to having 85.
And in what way does the lack of access to videos preclude you from knowing what happened to flight 77?

The videos come from civilian, business and security cameras in the vicinity of the Pentagon, says Pickering, who wonders why the agency won’t share the information.

"There is no justification for not releasing it," he says, adding that anyone can go to the Pentagon's Web site and get all the details about the building. "There's absolutely no security issue whatsoever."
As we know, when proper procedures are followed, the FBI has released some videos. This can take time.

Questions about the plane persist, such as why the official passenger manifest contained neither Arab names nor names that aren't accounted for, Pickering says.
False. The flight manifests contained the names of all 19 hijackers.

Further, the government has no positive identification of the five hijackers
False. The government has overwhelming evidence of the identity of the hijackers. And Russell failed to mention that the remains of two brothers were identified by DNA at the Pentagon, and that the only brothers to die there that day were listed as hijackers on flight 77.

and barred involvement by the Virginia medical examiner.
False. They turned down the VME's offer of involvement, because the DOD's pathologists and facilities were orders of magnitude more capable of dealing with mass casualty incidents than were the state of Virginia's.

Also barred from the site were members of the American Society of Civil Engineers, who based their subsequent report on indirect examinations, he adds.
False. This has been discussed with Russell in another thread.

"There may be answers for these things, but the government hasn't put forth a single piece of evidence," Pickering says.
Pathetically and blatantly false. The 9/11 Commission report? The NIST report on WTC 1 & 2? The ASCE report on the Pentagon? No evidence there?
"As an American citizen, I'm entitled to answers."
That depends on the questions you ask and who and how you're asking. And ignoring answers based on solid evidence is a bad idea.

"Whenever possible, I've gone to the source," Pickering says.
False. And you often made unsubstantiated claims without addressing the contradictory evidence that was staring you in the face, as you do here.
He's also consulting on a movie, "Loose Change 2nd Edition." The movie is promoted at http://www.loosechange911.com as showing a "direct connection between the attacks of Sept. 11 and the U.S. governoment."
The movie that gets every claim wrong.

Pickering's resolve was recently buoyed by wide interest in an Internet radio show in which he participated. Along with tens of thousands of Internet viewers, he says 30 federal agencies and military-industrial companies logged into the program.

"If we didn't have something important, they wouldn't be interested," Pickering says.
Your claims are not validated because some individuals at large organizations tuned into an netcast. That fallacy has been explained to you above.

Now, would you like to explain why the April, 2006 date of that article excuses your errors?
 
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Russell why are you so sure the WTC 7 collapse wasn't caused by the damage sustained during the collapse of WTC 1 and the susequent fire, based on the limited evidence you have collected?

NIST have been investigating the collapse for some time now and have found (in their words) no evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition. Are you saying they are lying? Remember NIST have access to all the evidence available, a lot of which hasn't been released. They are very specific about the damage to the south face shown in the diagram below...

wtc7.jpg


NIST said:
• middle 1/4 -1/3 width south face, 10th floor to ground
• large debris hole near center around 14th floor
• 1/4 width south face, above 5th floor, atrium glass intact
• 8th / 9th floor from inside, visible south wall gone with more damage to west, 2 elevator cars dislodged into elevator lobby

...doesn't common sense dictate they have photos of the damage because they are very specific in their description? If not are they lying?
 
The ideology of the PNAC is to save the whole world. They believe without a doubt that what they are doing is good and that the end justifies the means.

There was NO other way for them to have justified their Middle East policy in order to save the world. They had to have the American public behind them.

And that's why they seized the opportunity that a bunch of terrorists handed them that day. That's why they made up the WMD excuses. That's why they talk about Iraquis welcoming the troops with flowers.

Taking advantage of the currents of history doesn't mean that they're causing the currents. It just means they always have their eyes on the main chance, and don't hesitate to take a leap when the time comes.
 
In a historical sense, there is absolutely nothing unusual about the Bush administration's actions. To think that government acts out of anything but perceived self-interest is silly.
 
Is a surgeon evil to the 10,000 cells he sacrifices to save several billion?

The ideology of the PNAC is to save the whole world. They believe without a doubt that what they are doing is good and that the end justifies the means.

There was NO other way for them to have justified their Middle East policy in order to save the world. They had to have the American public behind them. Read Operation Northwoods (just a plan I know).

The greatest amount of good, for the most amount of people, for the longest period of time is not something that finite beings should decide!!

Boy, did you miss the point. The big problem with all the conspiracies: They're too complicated. A good conspiracy involves as few people as possible. A controlled demolition, or tropical lazor beams from space, etcetera, would involve far too many people, and would probably be leaked long before it got underway.

Besides, there are easier ways to justify a mideast attack/invasion/occupation/whatever than to kill a bunch of Americans. 9/11 just greased the wheels slightly.

Of course, the above is working backwards. Bush would have gone to Iraq if the attack was real or an inside job. With identical results, always favor the simpler hypothesis.
 
Also the reason she wasn't hurt by the collapse and was in no danger (something her mother wouldn't have known and probably still doesn't) is the fact that the FDNY had created a collapse zone around the building several hours beforehand, why? Becasue the building was showing telltale signs of imminent collapse, isn't that correct Russell?

Collapse and debris zones are set up for any working high rise fire.
 
Boy, did you miss the point. The big problem with all the conspiracies: They're too complicated. A good conspiracy involves as few people as possible. A controlled demolition, or tropical lazor beams from space, etcetera, would involve far too many people, and would probably be leaked long before it got underway.

Besides, there are easier ways to justify a mideast attack/invasion/occupation/whatever than to kill a bunch of Americans. 9/11 just greased the wheels slightly.

Of course, the above is working backwards. Bush would have gone to Iraq if the attack was real or an inside job. With identical results, always favor the simpler hypothesis.

It was a good example of post hoc, ergo prompter hoc though wasn't it?
 

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