Rumsfeld proven a liar. Twice.

What does this add to the debate?

It reiterates a very simple question about Ken's source, one he's dodging frantically because he knows his sources are crap... like yours, relying on subjectivity dressed up in fact.

I'm hardly surprised you missed it, though. Repeated requests for straight answers to simple questions have fallen your deaf ears often enough, with the same result.
 
So we didn't decide whether Rumsfeld's a liar?

Oh, what a shame.

Of course he is, what's your problem?

The whole damn administration lied like a lying thing on an exceptionally lying sort of day.

Sheesh.

See, here's a perfect example of Ken's, AUP's and Claus' mindset. Of course these are lies, don't question it, and don't expect us to defend our sources. It's obvious, beyond debate.

Ken, AUP, you may wish to insert Dr. A's post into your sig lines; it will save you both a great deal of time in the future.
 
Context for Rummies lie:

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Let me include the rest of his answer, since you chose not to (I wonder why?):
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/t03302003_t0330sdabcsteph.html
Second, the criminal facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area. It is the -- Answar Al-Islam group has killed a lot of Kurds. They are tough. And our forces are currently in there with the Kurdish forces, cleaning the area out, tracking them down, killing them or capturing them and they will then begin the site exploitation. The idea, from your question, that you can attack that place and exploit it and find out what's there in fifteen minutes.
I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting.

(emphasis mine)

Note that the very next sentence (particularly the bolded part) to the supposed lie actually supports Rumsfeld's claim that he meant facilities, and not WMD's. Without that next sentence, it indeed seems that Rumsfeld's "they" means WMD's, and you can blame him for bad or ambiguous language, but he's got a case that he meant "facilities". When people talk, they don't actually make paragraph breaks, so let me repost the quote with a different cut:

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. Second, the criminal facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area."

Doesn't it read like "they" could mean "facilities"? It does to me.

Furthermore, look at the bolded part at the end: Rumsfeld explicitly denies that he knows with any certainty where WMD's are at the moment he gave the interview. If you take the view that his earlier statement means he knows where WMD's are, and not facilities, then he's just contradicted himself. If, however, you take the view that he's refering to facilities, then there's no contradiction at all. If you want to claim he lied, then you also need to prove that it's the original statement, and not the subsequent contradiction, which someone who listened to the WHOLE THING could be expected to believe.

You can blame him for making a statement which seems ambiguous, or is easy to misread, but it's hard to portray it as a definitive claim of knowledge when he specifically disavows having such knowledge.

Your case looked SO nice, and I actually wondered whether you were right, until I read his whole response. At that point, it became pretty clear to me that Rumsfeld had pretty solid grounds for his response to McGovern, and that it was selective quoting which made it appear so clear-cut. I'm just wondering, though: have you ever SEEN the full response before, or did you only get the partial response from your sources and conclude that you understood the case? I'm guessing the latter, that you were merely duped, but I could be wrong.
 
Ziggurat,

What were the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq?

With quotes, if you please.
 
I think that it had to do with 9-11 (or more accurately, preventing another similar attack).
That's what I've been seeing the President offer by way of explanation.

"Victory In Iraq Is Critical To American Security"
If we leave Iraq before they are capable of defending their own democracy, the terrorists will achieve their stated goal: they will turn Iraq into a safe haven, seek to arm themselves with weapons of mass murder, and use Iraq as a base to overthrow moderate governments in the Middle East and launch more attacks against America and other free nations.
 
Ziggurat,

What were the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq?

With quotes, if you please.

http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686

It's the congressional authorization for the use of force. It contains all the official reasons we went to war against Iraq, and if you want to talk about why they said they went to war, there's your definitive source. It's rather long, so I don't think I can really summarize the whole thing adequately without just reposting it entirely (not much point in doing that), but I'll pick out one particular quote, since that seems to be what you want from me:

"Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;"

Oh wait, I though democratization was supposed to be an after-the-fact justification? What's it doing in there? Sneaky, sneaky, hiding their rational in plain sight like that.
 
Ziggurat,

What were the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq?

With quotes, if you please.

Huh? I'm still waiting for you to offer up a Rumsfeld lie. Or actually two, considering your OP. How long should I expect to wait?
 
http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686

It's the congressional authorization for the use of force. It contains all the official reasons we went to war against Iraq, and if you want to talk about why they said they went to war, there's your definitive source. It's rather long, so I don't think I can really summarize the whole thing adequately without just reposting it entirely (not much point in doing that), but I'll pick out one particular quote, since that seems to be what you want from me:

"Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;"

Oh wait, I though democratization was supposed to be an after-the-fact justification? What's it doing in there? Sneaky, sneaky, hiding their rational in plain sight like that.
I didn't ask who authorized it. I asked what the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq were.

Just a few, simple sentences, thank you.
 
I didn't ask who authorized it. I asked what the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq were.

Just a few, simple sentences, thank you.

It's all there, you intellectually bankrupt boob. Read it.
 
I didn't ask who authorized it. I asked what the Bush Administration's reasons for going to war with Iraq were.

Just a few, simple sentences, thank you.

I GAVE them to you. They are contained within the congressional authorization for war. That authorization was requested BY the Bush administration. It was signed BY the Bush administration. It became US policy the moment he signed it. It is, therefore, the official reasons for going to war in Iraq. I gave you what you asked for. Are you going to spend the next five pages of this thread denying that the congressional authorization for war contains the administration's reasons? Because if you are, just tell me now and I'll skip the rest of the thread. I've had enough of your failure to understand anything beyond what you've already decided to last me a long time.
 
How did Bush convince Congress to go to war with Iraq? Deception, misdirection and lies, of course. It's all outlined here:

http://www.bushoniraq.com/

But it's only from an official report from the US House Comittee on Government Reform.
 
He talks about criminal facilities a couple paragraphs after he claims that they know where the WMD's are.

Your reading skills really aren't too hot. There is indeed a small problem with the transcript, I guess I should have helped you out with this because evidently you're too stupid to figure it out yourself. Let me post the ENTIRE response, as it appears in the link I gave:

SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Second, the [audio glitch] facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area. It is the -- Answar Al-Islam group has killed a lot of Kurds. They are tough. And our forces are currently in there with the Kurdish forces, cleaning the area out, tracking them down, killing them or capturing them and they will then begin the site exploitation. The idea, from your question, that you can attack that place and exploit it and find out what's there in fifteen minutes.

I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting.

Second, the criminal facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area. It is the -- Answar Al-Islam group has killed a lot of Kurds. They are tough. And our forces are currently in there with the Kurdish forces, cleaning the area out, tracking them down, killing them or capturing them and they will then begin the site exploitation. The idea, from your question, that you can attack that place and exploit it and find out what's there in fifteen minutes.

I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting.

Notice something funny? The second and third paragraphs are repeated as the fourth and fifth paragraphs, with the addition that the [audio glitch] is transcribed as "criminal" the second time. Yes, "criminal facilities" does indeed appear in the fourth paragraph, two paragraphs later. But unless you think Rumsfeld actually repeats himself word for word over two paragraphs worth of speech, it's rather obvious that he did indeed use the term "criminal facilities" immediately after saying "They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." The duplication is rather obviously someone's screwup in transcribing the comments, most likely when the [audio glitch] portion was fixed. Duh.

But hey, on the plus side, your mistake was so blindingly obvious that at least nobody will believe it was made maliciously.
 
It's pretty obvious that Rummy says that he knows where the WMD's are and that they are in the criminal facilities. In otherwords, Rummy did claim he knew where the WMD's were.
 
It's pretty obvious that Rummy says that he knows where the WMD's are and that they are in the criminal facilities. In otherwords, Rummy did claim he knew where the WMD's were.

Or in other words:

So we didn't decide whether Rumsfeld's a liar?

Oh, what a shame.

Of course he is, what's your problem?

The whole damn administration lied like a lying thing on an exceptionally lying sort of day.

Sheesh.

Seriously. See what Dr. A wants to let you sig line his post. It's a lot easier for you than deconstructing your own sources; you clearly lack the wherewithal to do it anyhow.
 
But it's only from an official report from the US House Comittee on Government Reform.

Is it? Not quite. It's from the minority staff, prepared on behalf of ONE member of that committee, and it carries no official endorsement from the committee as a whole. In other words, it's a partisan document. Nothing WRONG with a partisan document, that doesn't automatically make it invalid, but really, you're not only committing the fallacy of appeal to authority, you're appealing to false authority.

It's pretty obvious that Rummy says that he knows where the WMD's are and that they are in the criminal facilities. In otherwords, Rummy did claim he knew where the WMD's were.

Really? Then why did he say, "So there may be nothing left. I don't know that." Seems he rather explicitly stated that he did NOT know if there were still any weapons at those facilities. Funny how that keeps getting ignored, again and again and again.
 
Rummy lied, he claimed he knew where WMD's are, then later he said that he never claimed that he knew where WMD's are.

It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
 
Rummy lied, he claimed he knew where WMD's are, then later he said that he never claimed that he knew where WMD's are.

It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.


Smart move. When context proves you wrong, go back to repeating the same dishonest, non-contetual sound bites.

I still want to know what you have to say about the first quote in your own source. Why are you so frightened to address it, Ken? It's your source, after all.
 
Really? Then why did he say, "So there may be nothing left. I don't know that." Seems he rather explicitly stated that he did NOT know if there were still any weapons at those facilities. Funny how that keeps getting ignored, again and again and again.

He's claiming he knew where the WMD's were, but that they might be gone by the time they get there. He's still telling lies. There is no evidence of WMD's or even a WMD production facility.
 
Smart move. When context proves you wrong, go back to repeating the same dishonest, non-contetual sound bites.

The context shows, for sure, that Rummy was talking about WMD's and claiming that he knows where they are. You just like to believe Rummy is infallible and doesn't lie. If Rummy didn't lie, there would be no need for apologists such as yourself to try and convince us that he didn't.

I still want to know ..

Let's throw a red-herring out there to bait people away from the obvious lies that Rummy told.
 

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