Rubio calls for IRS commissioner to resign.

Newtons Bit said:
Unpossible, I have it on good authority that no one is running the IRS.
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No. You've missed the point.

Why do you think Rubio is calling for the IRS Commissioner to resign? Is it something that has happened since November of 2012, or something that happened during the time when Shulman was acting Commissioner?

The guy he wants to resign has already resigned. The new guy wasn't in charge during the events that are the reason Rubio is demanding the resignation.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
No. You've missed the point.

Why do you think Rubio is calling for the IRS Commissioner to resign? Is it something that has happened since November of 2012, or something that happened during the time when Shulman was acting Commissioner?

The guy he wants to resign has already resigned. The new guy wasn't in charge during the events that are the reason Rubio is demanding the resignation.
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It would be an empty gesture for the current "acting" commissioner to resign. I concede the OP missed the target but hit the mark.
 
RandFan said:
I don't think that's funny. Why don't we have something other than an acting director? Why have the GOP prevented a permanent director?
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Politicians are typically scum. Ask them. But, then again, the president could have made a recess appointment.......
 
triforcharity said:
Politicians are typically scum. Ask them. But, then again, the president could have made a recess appointment.......
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It's true that the GOP likes it when Obama makes recess appointments. And it's not like the GOP has any means to block recess appointments... oh wait.

But I will grant your fist premise about politicians typically being scum. :)
 
stevea said:
There have been a continuous line of IRS commissioners and acting commissioners. They do exist, despite your objections.





Don't you think your Obama over-defensiveness exemplified by your lashing out by farce against those who have made not the least suggestion that Obama has involved is a more than a little sad ? So far Obama and even the nitwits on MSNBC seem to be saying the right thing about rooting out this nasty activity. No one is blaming Obama - but you two are so defensive as to preemptively attack. Sheesh !


The facts appear to be that the IRS knew this occurred as of July 2011, and as late as March 2012, Commissioner Douglas Shulman (yes appointed by Bush) insisted it did not in hearings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYt7nEac0yM

I have no idea who was to blame, nor who knew what when - but this is potentially criminal, not merely an administrative/firing matter. At a minimum it's a violation by some low level employees and a failure of management. It seems reasonably likely to involve cover-ups and perjury that persisted until last week's slip-up.

I have no idea why you imagine that this could not have been initiated by Republicans - the hard right has no great love of TeaPartiers or similar grass roots splinter movements.
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Yes, we can blame him. The current acting Commissioner was the Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement under Shulman. It was his job to oversee this behavior under Shulman just as it was to oversee it post Shulman.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Yes, we can blame him. The current acting Commissioner was the Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement under Shulman. It was his job to oversee this behavior under Shulman just as it was to oversee it post Shulman.
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Are you saying the commissioner couldn't act without the Deputy Commissioner signing off on whatever the commissioner wanted to do?
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
But there is no IRS Commissioner left that can be held accountable for what happened under his leadership last year or the year before. I assume that's why Rubio is calling for the resignation. That acting commissioner is already gone.
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Understand. Surely there is someone to be held responsible, right?

JoeTheJuggler said:
On top of that, why?
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Huh?

JoeTheJuggler said:
The stuff about flagging 501 c (3) applications based on the words "tea" and "patriot"? Trying to spin that as a scandal is pretty silly.
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It's not trying to spin a scandal. It's pretty much already there. Even the democratic President chastised the organization, and wants to know WTF was going on.

JoeTheJuggler said:
Here is the entirety of that statute section (501 c (3)):

If the accusation is that these flags were politically motivated, isn't that an admission that the organizations turned up by using them are likely political organizations?
It seems like political organizations applying for this status merit closer scrutiny to make sure they're not doing any of the things that would disqualify them for this status.
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There are other types of non profits. I do volunteer work for a 501(c)(3) and also for another type of non profit that is a tax exempt charity, but not a 501(c)(3) as they do lobby and work to change laws and such. It's possible that those organizations filed differently than a typical 501(c)(3)

JoeTheJuggler said:
Once it became obvious that these flags do not result in applicants that fail to qualify, they should not continue using them. I've not seen any evidence that they did so.
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The fact that they did so to begin with, is the biggest problem.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Yes, we can blame him. The current acting Commissioner was the Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement under Shulman. It was his job to oversee this behavior under Shulman just as it was to oversee it post Shulman.
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Yeah--that's not what Rubio was talking about. Rubio was obviously unaware of Shulman's resignation in November.
 
Newtons Bit said:
The non-profits in question were 501(c)(4).
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Which has an even stricter requirement:

(A) Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees, the membership of which is limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.
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So there isn't even the "substantial activity" out that Eeyore mentioned.

ETA: Again, IMO this is the greater scandal--that groups whose primary activity is electioneering are given this tax exempt status and allowed to keep campaign donors anonymous.
http://www.propublica.org/article/h...lions-on-elections-and-call-it-public-welfare
 
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triforcharity said:
Understand. Surely there is someone to be held responsible, right?
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Yes, but shouldn't that person be the person that was actually responsible? They could blame some lacky at the IRS but what is the point of symbolism? If the deputy commissioner had oversight of this particular program I think he should resign.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Not really. I assume Rubio is demanding the resignation of the IRS commissioner in charge at the time nonprofit applicants with "tea" and "patriot" in the names were flagged for closer scrutiny. That commissioner has already resigned.

Or is this one of those biblical things where the perceived sins of a Bush appointee are visited onto the succeeding seven "generations" in that office?
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Well he did have a high position in the IRS even prior to the previous commissioner resigning but I agree that an investigation should find out who is actually to blame before firing him.
 
triforcharity said:
Understand. Surely there is someone to be held responsible, right?
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Yeah, and he's already resigned. That's pretty much the point of the OP.

[ETA: Assuming there is even anything to be held responsible for. Personally, I'd have that evidence ready before calling for anyone's resignation.]

And the IRS has already put the kibosh on using "tea" and "patriot" as flags.

Wanting heads to roll over this is just a silly attempt to create a scandal where none exists.
 
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Newtons Bit said:
I hear that the guy running the ATF doesn't even work 40 hours a week as the acting Director. What a lazy bum.
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Will no one explain why we can't have a Director instead of an acting Director and only using that fact as a punch line? C'mon. What's the deal? If it's no big deal then appoint a Director. That's the elephant in the room. And BTW, calling all politicians scum isn't an answer either. This is a calculated move. To what end?
 
Puppycow said:
Well he did have a high position in the IRS even prior to the previous commissioner resigning but I agree that an investigation should find out who is actually to blame before firing him.
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If indeed anyone was to blame, which really requires evidence of maliciously targeting these groups.

But that's not what Rubio is calling for anyway. He certainly didn't think he was talking about someone who held a position lower than Commissioner at the time. He was obviously oblivious to the fact that Shulman recently retired.

He didn't bother to spend 5 seconds on Google before making a public call for someone's resignation.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
If indeed anyone was to blame, which really requires evidence of maliciously targeting these groups.

But that's not what Rubio is calling for anyway. He certainly didn't think he was talking about someone who held a position lower than Commissioner at the time. He was obviously oblivious to the fact that Shulman recently retired.

He didn't bother to spend 5 seconds on Google before making a public call for someone's resignation.
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Why are you so sure that he "didn't think he was talking about someone who held a position lower than Commissioner".
On May 3 2012 Steven Miller was briefed about the practices. That was over a year ago.

Here is a timeline of events from the Senate Committee on Finance.

April 19, 2010: The Sensitive Case Report is shared with two executives in Washington, DC, one of whom is Lois Lerner and the other her immediate subordinate.

June 29, 2011: The Director of EO in Washington, DC, Lois Lerner, is briefed that the criteria being used by employees includes “Tea Party,” “Patriots,” “9/12 Project,” “Government Spending,” “Government Debt,” “Taxes,” “make America a better place to live,” and cases with statements that criticize how the country is being run.


March 23 – 27, 2012: Steven Miller, Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement, asks his Senior Technical Advisor to look into what was going on in the Cincinnati office regarding Tea Party applications.

April 26, 2012: Steven Miller Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement sends response to March 14th GOP letter. The letter does not acknowledge that the IRS had inappropriately targeted tea party groups or asked improper questions about their contributors.

May 3, 2012: Steven Miller Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement is briefed that these conservative groups had been targeted by the IRS.

September 11, 2012: Steven Miller Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement sends response to June 18th GOP letter. The letter does not acknowledge that the IRS had inappropriately targeted tea party groups or asked improper questions about their contributors.
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RandFan said:
Will no one explain why we can't have a Director instead of an acting Director and only using that fact as a punch line? C'mon. What's the deal? If it's no big deal then appoint a Director. That's the elephant in the room. And BTW, calling all politicians scum isn't an answer either. This is a calculated move. To what end?
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Did you reply to the wrong person? This is totally non-sequitur to the post you are replying to.
 
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