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Romney Will Explode the Debt By Trillions

The ideal scenario would be for people to pay according to what government services they consume. Since there is no practical way to do this, a flat income tax or sales tax seems to me the most fair way to handle it. But do suggest alternatives that you might have.

Do you have any basis for that opinion other that “it seems”?

See my insurance analogy above, would it be fair for insurance companies to charge everyone the same regardless of the value of their property? Of course not.


For parents who make $50K a year and need every dime of it to feed their 4 children is it fair to say to him “you need to give us $20K per year to pay for a the Military we want to have”? Faced with the choice they would place more value on taking care of their children that worrying about what *could* happen if the US didn’t spend more on its military than the rest of the world combined.

For the wealthy on the other hand this may be a perfectly acceptable cost to make sure some foreign country doesn’t come in and seize their assets. After all they have more assets to protect and the amount of money isn’t a big deal to them. In fact it wouldn’t even be a big deal to them if they had to pay a lot more because some people just can’t spend that much.
 
For the wealthy on the other hand this may be a perfectly acceptable cost to make sure some foreign country doesn’t come in and seize their assets. After all they have more assets to protect and the amount of money isn’t a big deal to them. In fact it wouldn’t even be a big deal to them if they had to pay a lot more because some people just can’t spend that much.

Ah, but they like hoarding money, though. This is why we should tax the rich so much; so they don't stow money away from the economy once they run out of ideas of what to do with it.
 
Sure it is; the 1%-10%-20%-whatever pay all the extra taxes too ... and IRS tax.

So actually, yes, irrelevant.

You missed the point, which doesn't surprise me. The argument was made that the poorest don't pay federal income tax in an attempt to make it appear as though they don't pay taxes at all and making the rich appear as victims of the evil liberals. But the poor DO pay taxes. Mentioning that is very relevant, irrespective of whether the rich also pay those other forms of taxes.
 
So actually, yes, irrelevant.
It's irrelevant because without it it doesn't paints a complete picture. But in the end you just ignore the fact that the rich benefit from living in a nation that makes it possible to get rich. They couldn't have done that in Somalia. That ability is the result of others who have paid into the system. And more importantly, which you also ignore is that the taxes are in their best interest. It costs money to have a flourishing society. It costs money to have educated citizens, infrastructure and healthy citizens.

A progressive tax isn't just fair, it's the only way for there to be the super rich in the first place.

Your idea of "fairness" is to make the poor even poor and the richer even richer. Hardly fair.
 
Do you have any basis for that opinion other that “it seems”?

See my insurance analogy above, would it be fair for insurance companies to charge everyone the same regardless of the value of their property? Of course not.

But the risk of property replacement makes same-fee insurance value disproportionate.

What extra burden do I impose on society if I work 50% longer or develop skills to earn 50% more per hour ? Arguably I benefit society by working longer or smarter and providing more goods and services to others, but instead of being rewarded with a lower tax rate on that extra 50% of income I pay a very high marginal rate on it.

The idea that extra income implies extra burden on society is nonsense.

For parents who make $50K a year and need every dime of it to feed their 4 children is it fair to say to him “you need to give us $20K per year to pay for a the Military we want to have”? Faced with the choice they would place more value on taking care of their children that worrying about what *could* happen if the US didn’t spend more on its military than the rest of the world combined.

There is an obvious case for taxing someone with a median income of ~$50k/yr the full bill for government services. If they at the middle balk at paying so much then it indicates we are collectively living beyond our means. We are clearly pursuing government spending programs that are fiscally unrealistic.

Those who pay no/little income tax are still allowed to vote on policy but exempt from any political/market forces to operate government more effectively and that must ultimately ruin the economy and likely the democracy. It's the free-rider (freeloader) problem. It should be obvious that when a society is managed democratically and yet 51% of citizens are free-riders that the situation is untenable.

To prevent self-serving free-rider voting we need a very broad tax policy. Everyone involved in the decision making (voting) should have skin in the game.



For the wealthy on the other hand this may be a perfectly acceptable cost to make sure some foreign country doesn’t come in and seize their assets.

Right - the military is about protecting assets not liberties - thats so silly I thought only Lefty Sargent could propose it. What US assets or US liberties even were protected in Iraq, Afghanistan, VietNam .... Who has much assets and doesn't diversify them internationally. FAIL!


[/QUOTE] After all they have more assets to protect and the amount of money isn’t a big deal to them. [/QUOTE]

Money isn't a big deal to them ? You really believe that nonsense ?

It's obvious from observation that people without much assets squander money and so apparently it's 'not a big deal' to them. That's why working ppl with good incomes but living hand to mouth lease Lexus' and BMWs while millionaires drive owned beaters. It's the characteristic of caring about money than makes people into millionaires, and the characteristic of not caring after money that keeps many people poor - claiming the opposite is nonsense.

This is just another part of your class warfare - dehumanizing your enemy. They are sooo different that money is not a big deal to them - we are therefor allowed to steal and confiscate from and maybe kill these inhuman beings. The language of hate..

In fact it wouldn’t even be a big deal to them if they had to pay a lot more because some people just can’t spend that much.

Certainly there are rare people who could never spend their assets on themselves without resorting to nonsense. But how does that give the public any right to those asset ? Smells like envy. Also note that if we create this sort of confiscation of wealth then people simply won't bother to accumulate such wealth - they will stop or emigrate.

You are starting from several false premises. Confiscating ALL the assets or income of the uber-wealthy in the US would not make much of a dent in the US Federal budget - but it would insure that the next Bill Gates and a lot of highly productive wannabe build their business somewhere else. In a free market system (and we have an imperfect one) you can't accumulate wealth without creating even more value for others. Google rakes in $40Bln in revenues b/c they provide even more value than that to their customers. If you take away the incentives for ppl to make more - then they simply won't ; but that means they also won't be providing as much value to others.
 
But the risk of property replacement makes same-fee insurance value disproportionate.

No what makes same fee insurance unworkable is that not everyone has the same amount of money/value at risk You may or may not be surprised to find out that rich people have more money at risk in the US.


What extra burden do I impose on society if I work 50% longer or develop skills to earn 50% more per hour ?

You stand to lose more if you if the infrastructure those jobs depend on do not exist.

This of course presumes you actual work 50% longer or earn 50% more but in practice you being a conservative are more likely to think you you are entitled to more that you are to actually work harder an earn it. (see earning and taxation in predominately republican states vs predominately democratic states)




Arguably I benefit society by working longer

Why are you doing it for free? If you are also taking more out as well where is the benefit to society?



The idea that extra income implies extra burden on society is nonsense.

That's because it's a strawman. As explained above the issue is that the opportunity to get that extra income came from the infrastructure society as a whole paid for. No infrastructure not opportunity and third world lifestyle for you.

What make you feel you are entitled to reap great benefit form the contributions of others and not contribute in turn?










To prevent self-serving free-rider voting we need a very broad tax policy.

If you want to prevent free riders the first thing you need to do is recognition when it's occurring. For example when people want to reap greater financial benefits from the public infrastructure without making correspondingly greater contributions to it.




Right - the military is about protecting assets not liberties - thats so silly I thought only Lefty Sargent could propose it. What US assets or US liberties even were protected in Iraq, Afghanistan, VietNam .... Who has much assets and doesn't diversify them internationally. FAIL!

you are not making sense. Apparently someone felt they benefits from those wars or they would never have occurred. I'm pretty sure that the people you would insist stop feeding their children to pay for such wars would not count themselves among those who benefit.



Money isn't a big deal to them ? You really believe that nonsense ?


The more you have of something the less valuable a marginal amount of it is to you. If you only have $100 spending $95 is a big deal. if you have $100 million $95 is not something you are going to worry much about.

Are you seriously trying to argue that this isn't the case?



You are starting from several false premises. Confiscating ALL the assets or income of the uber-wealthy.

Since no one has tried to suggest that, it seems you are the one arguing from a false premise.
 
It's irrelevant because without it it doesn't paints a complete picture. But in the end you just ignore the fact that the rich benefit from living in a nation that makes it possible to get rich. They couldn't have done that in Somalia.

Somolia is an ad ridiculum argument. Can you claim they couldn't succeed in Canada, Oz, UK, France, Chile, Brazil, Singapore and a dozen others ?

That ability is the result of others who have paid into the system. And more importantly, which you also ignore is that the taxes are in their best interest. It costs money to have a flourishing society. It costs money to have educated citizens, infrastructure and healthy citizens.

But it costs wealth to NOT have those. Those are just the minimum requirements - table stakes. If you don't have skills and infrastructure you are out of the game. How is it a benefit to have infrastructure and an educated population and no jobs ?

You ignore that there is real competition and taxes are a big part of it.



A progressive tax isn't just fair, it's the only way for there to be the super rich in the first place.

Non sequitur - why must taxes be progressive to create this infrastructure and education ? Singapore caps the rate at 20% above $260k of income and they do better than we do in many ways.


Your idea of "fairness" is to make the poor even poor and the richer even richer. Hardly fair.

And your idea is to use taxation for income redistribution. You refute that this is some Marxist scheme and yet the main difference is that the earner is briefly allowed to hold the money before it is taxed away - a meaningless distinction.
 
Somolia is an ad ridiculum argument. Can you claim they couldn't succeed in Canada, Oz, UK, France, Chile, Brazil, Singapore and a dozen others ?
My claim is that they can only prosper to that extent that nations that have a progressive tax rate. And I'll add the caveat "likely". There are mega wealthy people in many dysfunctional nations. There's just not a lot of opportunity for many. I stand by that. Find me a nation without a progressive tax that has the opportunity that America has?

But it costs wealth to NOT have those. Those are just the minimum requirements...
Yea, still requisite and that's my only point.

You ignore that there is real competition and taxes are a big part of it.
I'm at a loss as to your point. I don't claim that there are not any other variables, only that a progressive tax is vitally important. It's also good for everyone. Progressive Tax Rates Linked To National Happiness: Study. The more happy and contended citizens you have the more productive those citizens are. There is a synergistic effect because we are an evolved social species. Many of us don't like to live in a nation where many are poor and struggle to survive.

Non sequitur - why must taxes be progressive to create this infrastructure and education ? Singapore caps the rate at 20% above $260k of income and they do better than we do in many ways.
A.) You are confusing cap with flat tax. Singapore has a progressive tax rate. B.) FWIW: Singapore doesn't spend near as much on the military either which people love to ignore (it's time for conservatives to step to the plate and fully fund the military or start cutting it). We need adequate revenue to pay for social programs (which Singapore has) and also to fund the military. A progressive tax rate is the only way to do that. That Singapore has a cap doesn't obviate the point.

And your idea is to use taxation for income redistribution. You refute that this is some Marxist scheme and yet the main difference is that the earner is briefly allowed to hold the money before it is taxed away - a meaningless distinction.
Income redistribution is political framing. But even if I grant the premise it doesn't begin to equate to Marxism. Under a progressive tax system a person can STILL be a billionaire. Not true of Marxism and that's a huge distinction.
 
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My claim is that they can only prosper to that extent that nations that have a progressive tax rate.

Then I didn't understand your claim. Wherei s the evidence for this claim ? did I miss a post ?

Find me a nation without a progressive tax that has the opportunity that America has?

I don't accept proof by lack of counterexample. No - you made the positive assertion and YOU have the burden of providing evidence.


It's also good for everyone. Progressive Tax Rates Linked To National Happiness: Study. The more happy and contended citizens you have the more productive those citizens are. There is a synergistic effect because we are an evolved social species..

That study shows "a link" (correlation) not causation as you imply.. There is a nice vid somewhere (sorry I'll have to dig) of a Swedish economist arguing that Sweden is not a model for the US, since their very high tax rates and services are only possible b/c they had a very homogeneous population so trust and avoidance of personal greed over concern for others is more prevalent. So pretty easy to see how the chain of causation *might* be that more homogeneous population leads to progressive taxation and more happiness. If that's the case then it won't necessarily work well here nor produce happiness.

So that is no evidence at all. It's a tantalizing study that does not support your claim.

Many of us don't like to live in a nation where many are poor and struggle to survive
Then you'll be really unhappy when you chase off productive people and cripple growth with your policies and make us all poor.


A.) You are confusing cap with flat tax. Singapore has a progressive tax rate.

No not confusion. My example shows that a far less progress tax results in this case in better outcomes. I doubt there is literally any non-progressive income tax since no one bothers to tax the indigent.


B.) FWIW: Singapore doesn't spend near as much on the military either which people love to ignore (it's time for conservatives to step to the plate and fully fund the military or start cutting it). We need adequate revenue to pay for social programs (which Singapore has) and also to fund the military.

No we don't need to spend so much on military. We should IMO cut mil spending to below half it's current value. Having said that I have to admit this will not solve the budget crisis, nor come close. It will keep the Reptards and the Libtards alike from wasting so much on interventions.


A progressive tax rate is the only way to do that.

Why - I see no argument and no evidence on that point. Refer me to a previous post if you wish.


Income redistributionism is political framing.

No - your redistribution is very clear in the case where you design a tax code to equalize outcomes - and that seems to be exactly what you seek. Definition,
re·dis·tri·bu·tion (rds-tr-byshn)
n.
1. The act or process of redistributing.
2. An economic theory or policy that advocates reducing inequalities in the distribution of wealth.


But even if I grant the premise it doesn't begin to equate to Marxism. Under a progressive tax system a person can STILL be a billionaire. Not true of Marxism and that's a huge distinction.

"be a be a billionaire" is a status of wealth, not income, and we are discussing income tax - right ? Obviously if a progressive the tax hits 100% then that defines a top income. In fact any effort to make additional income will stop well below the 100% rate when the return for effort is no longer acceptable. The old soviet union was rife with examples.

As an aside, Income (or other) taxes rates on capital gains define limits on expected risk adjusted returns that are acceptable. So higher cap gains taxes make investors more risk averse and reduce the positive aspects of risk taking in commerce.


I think you have a great plan if poverty and low growth are the goals.
 
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My claim is that they can only prosper to that extent that nations that have a progressive tax rate.
Have you got any evidence of a causal link between progressive taxation and economic prosperity?

AFAIK it is just a way of maximizing taxation revenue. If the objective is to provide a safety net for the poor then I believe that replacing the social security system with a negative income tax would be more cost effective.
 
It's irrelevant because without it it doesn't paints a complete picture. But in the end you just ignore the fact that the rich benefit from living in a nation that makes it possible to get rich. They couldn't have done that in Somalia. That ability is the result of others who have paid into the system. And more importantly, which you also ignore is that the taxes are in their best interest. It costs money to have a flourishing society. It costs money to have educated citizens, infrastructure and healthy citizens.

A progressive tax isn't just fair, it's the only way for there to be the super rich in the first place.

Your idea of "fairness" is to make the poor even poor and the richer even richer. Hardly fair.
I'm not pushing for non-progressive taxation, just noting that the bottom 48% don't pay IRS tax.

The current structure is plenty progressive imo, and Jan.1 the people actually hurt will be middle class taxpayers, not the wealthy.
 

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