Romney: We have too many teachers, cops, and firemen. Fire them!

[dc1971]

1. Here's J. P. Greene on the teacher pay myth.2. "To" is a statement of intention. Intentions are mental events. dc is mindreading, here.

Nope, not mind reading at all. Life experience and how I was raised is where I get my information. My parents were teachers for 35 years. Who is Jay P. Greene? Is/Was he a teacher at any point? All I see in this article is number crunching. That only tells half of the story. My question is, do teachers deserve a fair wage? Yes. Do they deserve more pay? Not necessarily. I think they deserve the same scrutiny as any other 9-5 employee.

3. Lots of trades and professions take work home. Carpenters don't get paid to sharpen their chisels on the jobsite.

Where did you get this information? I'm a carpenter and machinist by trade. I do all machining troubleshooting on site and have had all tool maintenance done on site. NEVER have I had to take any tools home to get them sharpened.

4. When I worked for the Hawaii DOE twenty years ago, I received $30,000 for a 180-day work year. I did not think I was underpaid. Teaching is fun if your students want to be there.

What did you teach?

 

[dc1971]

Exactly! That's his point!

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Who is Jay P. Greene?¹ ...What did you teach?²

1. Professor of Education.
2. Math.

 

[The Don]

4. When I worked for the Hawaii DOE twenty years ago, I received $30,000 for a 180-day work year. I did not think I was underpaid. Teaching is fun if your students want to be there.

It's a shame that you undervalued yourself so much. Even back then $30k a year for someone with one or more degrees is pretty cruddy.

I have just about enough qualifications to train as a teacher (a bachelor's degree) and yet at that time, with 4 years experience, I was earning £45k (about $70k) a year here in the UK - where pay is usually much worse.

IMO teaching is neither particularly well paying, nor the cushy billet some people would have us believe. Both my parents (and both Mrs. Don's parents) were teachers who worked very hard and were modestly paid.

 

[ponderingturtle]

In ordinary salary negotiations, the person paying the salary is on one side of the negotiating table. If they can't afford to pay the demanded salary, then they won't accept the deal. But with these public employee pensions, the people paying the pensions weren't at the negotiating table, not even through elected representatives. Yes, it's not fair to reduce pensions that have already been negotiated. But it's not fair that people who can't afford it and never had a say in it have such payment obligations either. Unions demanded and politicians found politically expedient to accept contracts which never should have been signed. But appealing to fairness alone doesn't suffice to resolve the conflict, because unfairness is now unavoidable.

This is why public employees should never be paid and instead live off graft. It is the only way to make it so the the people paying them consent.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hey! Interstate highways are a Republican (progressive republican at that) achievement, let's not bad mouth the good guys. (besides Ike is liable to rise from the dead and punk you like a sweet-lipped juvie tried as an adult for insinuating that he had anything to do with a red plot)

Commie bastards like Ike would play no role in either party now. Way too far to the left for american politics. To say nothing of his appallingly low levels of inequity, and high top marginal tax rate? 90%.

 

[WildCat]

When did the federal government fail to financially assist local governements who could not provide adequate police, firefighters and teachers?

I don't recall the feds ever doing this, do you? Those are local and state responsibilities. I am aware of the Illinois State Police taking over the policing of impoverished towns who can no longer support their own police force, but never the feds. And as I stated eralier there is a great moral hazard in the feds doing this, why act responsibly wrt budgets if the feds will just step in and bail you out when you spend more than your revenues dictate?

At any rate, Obama is selling this as a jobs program.

 

[WildCat]

Assuming your figure is correct, it only refers to official working hours. Is there any measure as to how many unpaid or unofficial/off-the-clock hours of work they put in each year? 'Cause a lot of folk are in the position of being expected to work extra hours for their job, hours for which they are not directly paid.

No kidding, so?

I still contend that teachers work less hours per year than any other full-time job I can think of. And Chicago teachers don't exactly have a record of great student achievement to bolster their case. Chicago high schools spend ~ $13K per student per year, how much more do they need?

 

[BenBurch]

All those words, and nothing at all relevant to any of mys posts in this thread.

Hint: Illinois hasn't bought a single F-22, and not one dime of our budget went to the Iraq war effort.

And Chicago teachers already average $75K/year (starting pay is $50K) for working one of the shortest school days in the country, barely more than 5 hours.

BS.

You voted for those things. You personally. When you voted for your representatives in Congress and for the President. All of Illinois is as involved in those things as any of the other 50 states. The PEOPLE of the United States own those aircraft, and we are utterly responsible for them.

Moreover, $75 K isn't that much in the city. Not when a decent apartment is around $18,000 a year. 5 hours? You think any teacher works only 5 hours? Are you aware that 5 hours class time requires around 5 hours of prep time?

 

[Skepticemea]

No kidding, so?

I still contend that teachers work less hours per year than any other full-time job I can think of. And Chicago teachers don't exactly have a record of great student achievement to bolster their case. Chicago high schools spend ~ $13K per student per year, how much more do they need?

How much do Alabama, West Virginia, Louisiana and Mississppi spend per pupil?

ETA: The Chicago spend is slightly higher than the state average of $12,457. Where did you get the figure from?

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/pdf/cb11-94_table_11.pdf

 

[dc1971]

I still contend that teachers work less hours per year than any other full-time job I can think of.

Well, you would be wrong.

Again, my parents were teachers for 35 years. Both of them worked long and hard hours, did not receive extra pay for working over 8 hours, and your determination about a 5 hour day is based on what time the students put in not the teachers. There is a such thing as In-Service, look it up!

 

[DavidJames]

Well, you would be wrong.

Again, my parents were teachers for 35 years. Both of them worked long and hard hours, did not receive extra pay for working over 8 hours, and your determination about a 5 hour day is based on what time the students put in not the teachers. There is a such thing as In-Service, look it up!

Also not considered is the out of pocket expenses many teachers incur to augment supplies cut back due to budget issues. My daughter (2nd grade teacher in title 1 school) also uses her own money to help some of her students with supplies they can't afford. Then there is the required education during the summer.

Are there bad teachers, sure, just like there are bad plumbers, CEO's, lawyers and stock traders.

Reading the ignorance people belch out about teachers would be laughable if not so disgusting.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Blah blah blah I have no counterargument.

No, I don't bother wasting time on people who won't chamge their minds.

 

[Newtons Bit]

BS.

You voted for those things. You personally. When you voted for your representatives in Congress and for the President. All of Illinois is as involved in those things as any of the other 50 states. The PEOPLE of the United States own those aircraft, and we are utterly responsible for them.

Moreover, $75 K isn't that much in the city. Not when a decent apartment is around $18,000 a year. 5 hours? You think any teacher works only 5 hours? Are you aware that 5 hours class time requires around 5 hours of prep time?

The national average for housing expenses is 30%+ of income. The teachers have a pretty sweet deal at at 24% (plus a couple percent more for gas and electric).

edit: and it looks like it's 39% in Illinois.

 

[Unabogie]

All those words, and nothing at all relevant to any of mys posts in this thread.

Hint: Illinois hasn't bought a single F-22, and not one dime of our budget went to the Iraq war effort.

And Chicago teachers already average $75K/year (starting pay is $50K) for working one of the shortest school days in the country, barely more than 5 hours.

But the thread, in case you missed it, is about federal aid to the states. The GOP line is that there is no money to be had in order to pay for it. Boehner famously said "Folks, we're BROKE!". But here you have an Illinois rep who somehow found it in the budget to spend $35 billion or more on a plane nobody wants. It's disgraceful, and the money wasted on it could pay for your budget shortfalls, which are largely caused by the recession. But you also say that not one dime of your budget went to Iraq. You do understand that money is fungible, right? That money wasted in Iraq is money that added to the debt, the same debt that is now being used to argue why we can't build bridges or rehire the teachers lost during the Great Recession? Isn't that obvious?

Finally, according to the article I linked, Chicago teachers work 7 hours a day, not 5. And that will go up to 7.7.

And that doesn't cover all that extra work teachers do that doesn't happen "on the clock". All the supplies they buy on their own dime. I know. My mom was a teacher for forty years, and she worked beyond her retirement doing sub work, since she really just enjoyed teaching kids. She gave far more into the LAUSD system than she got back. She never made as much money as most people with a master's degree do.

That lady deserves her secure retirement.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't recall the feds ever doing this, do you? Those are local and state responsibilities. I am aware of the Illinois State Police taking over the policing of impoverished towns who can no longer support their own police force, but never the feds. And as I stated eralier there is a great moral hazard in the feds doing this, why act responsibly wrt budgets if the feds will just step in and bail you out when you spend more than your revenues dictate?

At any rate, Obama is selling this as a jobs program.

Yes! I already linked to you all the block grants, stimulus, and other programs through the years. Don't you remember Bill Clinton's 100,000 policemen program? He set aside federal money to pay for local police. Stimulus programs almost always include money for state aid, precisely because states can't run deficits and recessions hit state revenues. So the feds have given states money so they don't have to fire people, which is about jobs.

This has been going on for decades, and it's a good thing, with sound economics behind it. Letting states fire these folks causes a downward spiral, which is why stimulus programs always seek to help state budget shortfalls.

 

[Corsair 115]

No kidding, so?

I take it then you have no measures like I asked. It might have been that they put it far more unpaid/extra hours than in other locales, which would explain why their salaries are higher for the 'official' hours. Thus putting the bigger picture into context.

A part of the context I thought at least worthy of a cursory look if nothing else. I guess a thorough and dispassionate examination of a matter deemed to be political in some form is off the table.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, I don't bother wasting time on people who won't chamge their minds.

Why are you even here? If you can't write more than one-sentence content-free responses, why even bother?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

You voted for those things. You personally. When you voted for your representatives in Congress and for the President.

That is the fundamental problem with government operation of industry. Majority rule does not work at all well with issues like the size of shoe we all must wear or next Thursday's lunch menu.

...Federalism ("State's rights") and markets institutionalize humility on the part of State (government, generally) actors. If a policy difference turns on a matter of taste, numerous local policy regimes and competitive markets allow for the expression of varied tastes, while the contest for control over a State-monopoly enterprise must inevitably create unhappy losers (who may comprise the vast majority; imagine the outcome of a nationwide vote on the one size and style of shoes we all must wear). If a policy difference turns on a matter of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, numerous local policy regimes and competitive markets in goods and services will generate more information than will a State-monopoly enterprise. A State-monopoly enterprise is like an experiment with one treatment and no controls, a retarded experimental design. This applies to anti-corruption policy as well as to shoes and education services.

Peddle that dope on the corner, I'm not buying.

Just how would democratic choice of next week's lunch menu work? President Obama recently said that government should do what individuals cannot do on their own. That's a necessary but not sufficient condition. Individuals without the authority of a government could not gas 1,000,000 jews in 13 months in one 2000 hectare area. Individuals without the authority of a government could not starve 3,000,000 Ukranians in one year. Does the observatiojn that this can be done only by a government imply that any government should do this? When you aggregate authority to make a multitude of decisions into one office, it's unlikely that any particular voter approves all the policy choices of the authority. By Ben's logic, voters approved of Solyndra, the Watergate break-in, the Trail of Tears, the WWII Japanese internment, and the Lusitania provocation that generated US entry into WWI.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

This is why public employees should never be paid and instead live off graft. It is the only way to make it so the the people paying them consent.

Well, perhaps society would be better off if the State shed industries that work better in a competitive market (e.g., schools, the post office), disallowed public-sector unions, and paid all government employees in cash only (no health care, no pension). You want health insurance? Buy the plan you like. You want a pension? Talk to Morgan Stanley or New England Life. Then at least voters would know how much a service really costs.