Romney, Obama, Rasmussen

Good thing that they are one of the most accurate pollsters out there.

You fail. Next time read your PDF before mashing that "link" button.

YOUR SOURCE said:
The following list ranks the 23 organizations by the accuracy of their final, national preelection polls (as reported on pollster.com).

In case you didn't notice, we're 6 1/2 weeks ahead of the election. Making the dates on these polls a second fail...

1. Rasmussen (11/1-3)**
1. Pew (10/29-11/1)**
2. YouGov/Polimetrix (10/18-11/1)
3. Harris Interactive (10/20-27)
4. GWU (Lake/Tarrance) (11/2-3)*5. Diageo/Hotline (10/31-11/2)*
5. ARG (10/25-27)*
6. CNN (10/30-11/1)
6. Ipsos/McClatchy (10/30-11/1)
7. DailyKos.com (D)/Research 2000 (11/1-3)8. AP/Yahoo/KN (10/17-27)
9. Democracy Corps (D) (10/30-11/2)
10. FOX (11/1-2)
11. Economist/YouGov (10/25-27)
12. IBD/TIPP (11/1-3)13. NBC/WSJ (11/1-2)
14. ABC/Post (10/30-11/2)
15. Marist College (11/3)16. CBS (10/31-11/2)
17. Gallup (10/31-11/2)
18. Reuters/ C-SPAN/ Zogby (10/31-11/3)
19. CBS/Times (10/25-29)
20. Newsweek (10/22-23)

...because they're _all_ from the days immediately prior to the election.

And the author didn't even compare apples to apples; the highlighted ones are the only ones which covered the same time period as Rasmussen (the 3rd, specifically). Let's just say that being able to get close to the right number the day before the election is no great shakes as far as predictive power goes.

However, since you're so confident, let's get us a two-month avatar bet going. Romney wins, I use an avatar of your choice for two months. Obama wins, you use an avatar of my choice for the same two months.

Rasmussen has Romney +3. The odds are in your favor, according to you.
 
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That's odd. Let's take a look at some more data about Rasmussen in 2008, shall we?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Scrolling down, we find...

FTL said:
Gallup Tracking 9/15 - 9/17 2815 RV 2.0 48 44 Obama +4
Rasmussen Tracking 9/15 - 9/17 3000 LV 2.0 48 48 TieHotline/FD Tracking 9/15 - 9/17 912 RV 3.2 46 42 Obama +4
GWU/Battleground 9/11 - 9/18 800 LV 3.0 47 47 Tie
CBS News/NY Times 9/12 - 9/16 LV 3.0 49 44 Obama +5
Quinnipiac 9/11 - 9/16 987 LV 3.1 49 45 Obama +4
Pew Research 9/9 - 9/14 2307 LV -- 46 46 Tie
Reuters/Zogby 9/11 - 9/13 1008 LV 3.1 47 45 Obama +2

Huh. And yet, the final average from RCP was Obama 7.6, and the results were Obama 7.3.

Looks to me like Gallup, Hotline, CBS, and Quinnipiac are at least 4 points more accurate than Rasmussen for this time of year (I mean, it _is_ 9/14 today, right?).
 
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Oh and Nate Silver's "Obama +10" is a huge fail. All the polls on RCP now reflect the convention or post convention. BO peaked out at 3.6 and now is down to 3.2
Are you referring to the convention bounce that Silver explicitly controls for in his model?

Speaking of fail, Silver's popular vote prediction never topped a 4.1 point gap, which happened around September 8. I'm not even sure where you pulled that "Obama +10" number. (Well, I have one idea.)
 
Good thing that they are one of the most accurate pollsters out there.

Accurate in their final, pre-election poll. Which, you know, all the polls posted in this thread aren't.

I think it was Nate Silver himself who pointed out that Rasmussen was the most inaccurate polling firm in most pre-election polls, only shifting in the last few polls conducted right before the election.

EDIT: You people are quick.
 
Accurate in their final, pre-election poll. Which, you know, all the polls posted in this thread aren't.

I think it was Nate Silver himself who pointed out that Rasmussen was the most inaccurate polling firm in most pre-election polls, only shifting in the last few polls conducted right before the election.

EDIT: You people are quick.

BAM

eta: Also, BOOM
 
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FTL said:
The 105 polls released in Senate and gubernatorial races by Rasmussen Reports and its subsidiary, Pulse Opinion Research, missed the final margin between the candidates by 5.8 points, a considerably higher figure than that achieved by most other pollsters. Some 13 of its polls missed by 10 or more points, including one in the Hawaii Senate race that missed the final margin between the candidates by 40 points, the largest error ever recorded in a general election in FiveThirtyEight’s database, which includes all polls conducted since 1998.

d'oh!
 
You fail. Next time read your PDF before mashing that "link" button.

In case you didn't notice, we're 6 1/2 weeks ahead of the election. Making the dates on these polls a second fail...
I read the report and I do know we're still weeks away from the final election. In case you haven't realized it, the only way to accurately judge the accuracy of a pollster is comparing their polling to the actual election results immediately following the poll. Things change between the poll and election. Duh.
Let's just say that being able to get close to the right number the day before the election is no great shakes as far as predictive power goes.
Let's just say that each pollsters methodology differs and some are better than others in their accuracy. Rasmussen is one of the best.

However, since you're so confident, let's get us a two-month avatar bet going. Romney wins, I use an avatar of your choice for two months. Obama wins, you use an avatar of my choice for the same two months.

Rasmussen has Romney +3. The odds are in your favor, according to you.
In case you don't realize it, polls only reflect sentiment at a point in time. It says nothing about the future.

Upchurch said:
Are you referring to the convention bounce that Silver explicitly controls for in his model?
I'm refering to the 8 - 10 point bounce that Silver estimated that the post convention bounce would give to BO. The polls were even just before the convention. BO peaked out at 3.6. Silver was way off.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/08/sept-8-conventions-may-put-obama-in-front-runners-position/

BenBurch said:
You mock my statement, but previously agreed with it? Make up your mind.

And your hero Silver noted that Rasmussen and the third lowest house bias of major pollsters.

"In summation, none of these tracking polls are perfect, although Rasmussen -- with its large sample size and high pollster rating -- would probably be the one I'd want with me on a desert island." - Nate Silver http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/tracking-poll-primer.html
 
I read the report and I do know we're still weeks away from the final election. In case you haven't realized it, the only way to accurately judge the accuracy of a pollster is comparing their polling to the actual election results immediately following the poll. Things change between the poll and election. Duh.

So you admit that your report is completely meaningless in the context of this discussion? Excellent. We can discard it, then.

Let's just say that each pollsters methodology differs and some are better than others in their accuracy. Rasmussen is one of the best.

No. Please refer to Upchurch's links for how badly they performed in 2010.

In case you don't realize it, polls only reflect sentiment at a point in time. It says nothing about the future.

I'll take it that's a "no", then? :D

The polls right now say that people's minds will have to change between now and November if Romney wants to be elected. Quite a lot, in fact.

I'm refering to the 8 - 10 point bounce that Silver estimated that the post convention bounce would give to BO. The polls were even just before the convention. BO peaked out at 3.6. Silver was way off.

Citation from the article you linked, please. I've read the article and what Silver said is not what you think he did -- so I'm going to request that you please provide a specific supporting quote. :)

And your hero Silver noted that Rasmussen and the third lowest house bias of major pollsters.

From the _actual article_:

FTA said:
If you are used to looking at Rasmussen Reports polls, your impression may be that their partisan lean is stronger than that. This is not wrong, actually. ... Since Rasmussen Reports is one of the few polling firms to be surveying likely voters, adjusting other polls to a likely-voter basis tends to bring the other polling firms closer in line with it. Without that likely-voter adjustment, Rasmussen Reports would have roughly a three point Republican-leaning house effect.

Which would make it the furthest Republican-leaning of all the polls in his chart. :D Seriously, dude, do you read these things before you spam them?

"In summation, none of these tracking polls are perfect, although Rasmussen -- with its large sample size and high pollster rating -- would probably be the one I'd want with me on a desert island." - Nate Silver http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/tracking-poll-primer.html

You fail again -- both by being dishonest in the timeframe, and by simply being wrong. Imprimis, your prior link points to an article from June of this year, and yet the quote you link comes from two articles in October of 2008. Secundus, Upchurch's links above quote Silver in 2010 saying:

Nate said:
Moreover, Rasmussen’s polls were quite biased, overestimating the standing of the Republican candidate by almost 4 points on average. In just 12 cases, Rasmussen’s polls overestimated the margin for the Democrat by 3 or more points. But it did so for the Republican candidate in 55 cases — that is, in more than half of the polls that it issued.

In short, between 2008 and 2010, Rasmussen swung hard to the right and has only swung back by a single point since then. And is, thus, very far away from being one of the "most accurate" pollsters out there. :D

Hope this helps. Next time, remember that research includes _reading_ your sources.
 
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I'm refering to the 8 - 10 point bounce that Silver estimated that the post convention bounce would give to BO. The polls were even just before the convention. BO peaked out at 3.6. Silver was way off.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/08/sept-8-conventions-may-put-obama-in-front-runners-position/

So, is this a problem of reading comprehension or cherry picking?

First, Silver didn't say it was an estimate, but an implication of based on the amount of data that was available at the time. Further, he followed all of that with this:
This method is not perfect — the only way we would know exactly how well Mr. Obama had been doing is if the polling firms published day-by-day results, which none of them do.

Second, you are comparing apples to oranges. The "10" number you are referring to was the implied calculation for one polling group. Silver's actual estimated convention bounce for both conventions was +4, which is based on a statistical analysis the last few decades of polling numbers. All of this, as I said, his model accounts for:

As I mentioned, the FiveThirtyEight forecast will adjust for the convention bounces.

Mathematically, this adjustment is not complicated: we’ll just subtract out the projected effects of the convention from the polls.

So, for example, if Mr. Romney holds a five-point lead in a poll conducted this weekend, the model will instead treat that as a one-point lead. This is because this should be right in the midst of his convention bounce and because our benchmark for his convention bounce is four points this year.
 
I'm reminded of (a bastardization of) the Lawyer's rule:
  1. Argue the facts.
  2. If the facts are against you, argue the math.
  3. If the math is against you, make up new facts.
 
So, is this a problem of reading comprehension or cherry picking?
Neither one. I represented what he said correctly.

First, Silver didn't say it was an estimate, but an implication of based on the amount of data that was available at the time. Further, he followed all of that with this:
He estimated or "implied" what the bounce would be after all of them reflected the post convention data.


Second, you are comparing apples to oranges. The "10" number you are referring to was the implied calculation for one polling group.
The ten pointer was for Gallup. The average of the four polls was 7.8 or about 8 points as I said, 8 - 10 points. Gallup never hit 10 and the average peaked out at 3.6


remirol said:
So you admit that your report is completely meaningless in the context of this discussion? Excellent. We can discard it, then.
I said Rasmussen is one of the most accurate pollsters. That's demonstratively true. The context of this discussion is what the polls are reporting. You seem to have confused polling with predicting the final outcome.

No. Please refer to Upchurch's links for how badly they performed in 2010.
Cherry picking much? And Silver was wrong:

Silver named Quinnipiac University Poll as the most accurate poll of the election cycle. However, according to RealClearPolitics, in the three Senate and gubernatorial toss-up races where both Rasmussen Reports and Quinnipiac polled, the Rasmussen Reports final poll was closer to the mark in every race.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmussen_Reports

remirol said:
The polls right now say that people's minds will have to change between now and November if Romney wants to be elected. Quite a lot, in fact.
Yep. Just like they changed in '08. On this date back then McCain was up by +2.4.

Citation from the article you linked, please. I've read the article and what Silver said is not what you think he did -- so I'm going to request that you please provide a specific supporting quote.
What part of this do you not understand?:

In the table below, I’ve run through the same calculation for the other tracking polls. The results imply that Mr. Obama has run about nine points ahead of Mr. Romney in the portion of the Ipsos poll conducted since Mr. Clinton’s speech, about eight points ahead in the RAND poll, and about four points ahead in the Rasmussen poll.

Which would make it the furthest Republican-leaning of all the polls in his chart. Seriously, dude, do you read these things before you spam them?
First, citing sources and support is not considered "spam", second the cited chart reflects apples to apples since, "Our methodology applies a “likely voter adjustment” in addition to the house effects adjustment. " Thus they are all compared on an equal basis.

You fail again -- both by being dishonest in the timeframe, and by simply being wrong. Imprimis, your prior link points to an article from June of this year, and yet the quote you link comes from two articles in October of 2008. Secundus, Upchurch's links above quote Silver in 2010 saying:
Silver seems to have some sort of weird love/hate relationship with Rasmussan. Saying that he loved them in 2008, then saying, "Presidential race — nevertheless had performed quite strongly in in 2004 and 2006. And they were about average in 2008. But their polls were poor this year."

Bottom line is that they were dead on in the presidential race in 2008 as per my citation and when they show your guy up by multiple points ahead of Gallup or CNN we don't hear how biased and bad they are, but as soon as they show the other guy ahead, they become the laughing dog of the pollsters.
 
Neither one. I represented what he said correctly.

He estimated or "implied" what the bounce would be after all of them reflected the post convention data.


The ten pointer was for Gallup. The average of the four polls was 7.8 or about 8 points as I said, 8 - 10 points. Gallup never hit 10 and the average peaked out at 3.6
Ha! Epic fail. You are not only cherry picking Silver, you're cherry picking me now. You completely ignored the bits where I showed you Silver's actual prediction for the convention bounces.

Your path to the intellectually dishonest side is now complete.
 
I said Rasmussen is one of the most accurate pollsters. That's demonstratively true.

Except that I demonstrated that it was false, per the numbers in 2010. Which were more recent than the numbers in 2008. And thus more valid when referenced currently.

Bottom line is that they were dead on in the presidential race in 2008 as per my citation

Except that they only became "dead on" in the three days immediately preceding the election, and even then there were more accurate polls which showed Obama at +7: FOX News, Ipsos/McClatchy, and CNN Research. Not to mention the RCP average itself, which was only off by .3.

Fact.

So, "Bottom line" is that no matter what they did in '04, Rasmussen leans hard right today, the facts show it, and you're forced to cherry pick your data and your responses in order to support your mistaken assertion that they don't. I've trashed your data three different times in this thread; it's obvious that you're no longer arguing honestly (see the timeframe shift, above, as well as your assertion that numbers from 2008 are more valid in 2012 than numbers from 2010) and as such can be safely ignored.

Much like Rasmussen.

and when they show your guy up by multiple points ahead of Gallup or CNN we don't hear how biased and bad they are, but as soon as they show the other guy ahead, they become the laughing dog of the pollsters.

Oh, no, I posted a laugher before when Rasmussen showed Obama up, because if Rasmussen shows Obama winning, then he must be WAY ahead. That is just as hilarious to me, quite frankly.
 
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows Mitt Romney attracting support from 48% of voters nationwide, while President Obama earns 45% of the vote. Two percent (2%) prefer some other candidate, and five percent (5%) are undecided.
 
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows Mitt Romney attracting support from 48% of voters nationwide, while President Obama earns 45% of the vote. Two percent (2%) prefer some other candidate, and five percent (5%) are undecided.

*hugs*
 
Wow, Romney's numbers on WTA over at IEM continue to fall, while his drop at Intrade is holding...

IEM
Obama 70.0%
Romney 30.3%

Intrade
Obama 65.6%
Romney 34.3%

I think this might describe the faces at Romney HQ right about now: :jaw-dropp
 

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