Romney Now Flip-Flopping on Foreign Policy

[RandFan]

So long as humans want happiness then they will want peace as that is the surest way to get it.

VIRUS! LOOK OUT!! DUCK!!!

Whew, that was close.

The point going over your head could have been deadly.

If the point were a snake it would have bit him in the ass.

 

[Virus]

Do they want their family members to die? Do they want the stress that comes from occupation?

You keep conflating the wants of the Palestinian leaders with the wants of the citizens.

Who won the elections again?

 

[RandFan]

Who won the elections again?

This has already been explained Virus.

1. The Palestinian people believe that the only path to peace and independence is through violence (do you remember the American Revolution or even the French Revolution? See, sometimes violence is a means to and end).
2. Now, there might be a better path but it's economically in the favor of the leaders to keep the violence.
3. For the Palestinian citizens the violence isn't the ends.
4. For the Palestinian citizens the violence is the means to achieve the ends.
5. The ends are peace and prosperity.

Could you help out in this little discussion here and let me know if you disagree with any of the above premises and why?

Look, it's this simple. I've given you a sociobiological and historical basis why otherwise peaceful people would seek violence as a solution.

• Can you at least acknowledge the argument? Can you let me know that you read what I write?

Or

• Would YOU provide a sociobiological and historical basis to justify the proposition that Palestinian citizens (NOT the leaders) want their loved ones to die for the sake of violence?

 

[Virus]

You can't say someone wants peace because after they've killed all the Jews there will be peace.

 

[Brainster]

Wow, no kidding. I'm sorry. I'm not even on drugs right now.

Would you not agree that the goal of the Palestinians is to defeat Israel and THEN live in peace?

That's setting the bar a little low, wouldn't you say? By that standard, the Nazis wanted peace as well; just as soon as they finished off the Brits, the Russians and exterminated the Jews.

 

[RandFan]

That's setting the bar a little low, wouldn't you say? By that standard, the Nazis wanted peace as well; just as soon as they finished off the Brits, the Russians and exterminated the Jews.

Again, you are conflating things. But let's go with your premise. Yes, of course they wanted peace but they wanted to anex other nations first. Remember, I keep saying over and over, it's the ends that they want. The ends that they want isn't eternal war.

But let's take your premise further, did the Americans want liberation or violence when the instigated the Revolutionary war? Was it simply a lust for death that cause the American Revolution? For your logic to hold it would have to be the case. No one who loved peace would engage in violence by your logic.

That said, what the citizens want from a war is quite different from what the leaders want. Hitler didn't run on a platform of being a megalomaniac war monger. He led the German people into the suicidal conflict on promises that had nothing whatsoever to do with eternal war.

• Let me ask you, do you honestly think the German people looked forward to the war because of their contempt of peace?
• Do you think the German people hoped the war would never end? Really?

 

[RandFan]

You can't say someone wants peace because after they've killed all the Jews there will be peace.

As much as I can say that the Israelis don't want peace because they oppress and occupy Palestine and allow those idiotic settlements. And BTW, from all I know most of the Palestinians don't want death to all Jews. That's red meat for the extremists.

But you STILL haven't addressed my posts. You keep ignoring my points while I address yours. Do you honestly feel that is in good faith?

 

[Virus]

I can't believe anyone would put forward the idea of Nazis wanting peace as a serious concept.

 

[RandFan]

I can't believe anyone would put forward the idea of Nazis wanting peace as a serious concept.

I can't believe that anyone would think that an entire group of people were more interested in the means to the outcome rather than the outcome. Why the hell would Nazis want eternal violence and the death of their loved ones? You refuse time and again to answer such a simple question. It is because you can't? In any event, your response is typical of people on the right. Where everything is black and white. The Nazi's were not inherently evil people who lived for violence. They were a group that was seduced into evil and violence to meet their goals. That doesn't mean that they all wanted to forever fight and die.

You are conflating wanting peace with pacifism. The Nazis were not pacifists. They believed that there was a justification for violence and terrorism (just not eternal violence and terrorism) Oh, and BTW, the entire German populace were not Nazis. Not all Nazis shared every goal of the German hierarchy. You are making the typical conservative error of generalizing and black and white thinking.

And you are still debating in bad faith. I address your points and you ignore mine.

 

[KwamiFabu]

I do believe that most Palestinians want peace. But more than that, they want their land back -- land that was taken from them after WWII as compensation for crimes they had no part in committing. Is it any surprise that their collective resentment should manifest itself in terrorist regimes like the PLO and Hamas?

There is no simple way to undo the mistake committed more than 60 years ago. Too much blood has been spilled on both sides. And it is naive to think that America, which played a role in the creation of Israel, can single-handedly bring peace to this war-torn region. Many presidents have tried; none have succeeded, including the present one.

 

[SezMe]

And you are still debating in bad faith.

No, he's not. He's not debating at all. Virus is the master of the one-line post. Think of him as the anti-BAC. He'll one-line you to death, RandFan. How's that saying go "Don't wrestle with pigs because they'll have fun and you'll get dirty." Or something like that.

 

[SkepticalDrew]

Oh, and BTW, the entire German populace were not Nazis.

If I recall correctly the Nazi's didn't even win the majority of the votes, just the amount to make them the majority party.

 

[drewid]

I do believe that most Palestinians want peace. But more than that, they want their land back -- land that was taken from them after WWII as compensation for crimes they had no part in committing. Is it any surprise that their collective resentment should manifest itself in terrorist regimes like the PLO and Hamas?

There is no simple way to undo the mistake committed more than 60 years ago. Too much blood has been spilled on both sides. And it is naive to think that America, which played a role in the creation of Israel, can single-handedly bring peace to this war-torn region. Many presidents have tried; none have succeeded, including the present one.

Yet in Ireland mistakes committed over hundreds of years, and involving much spilling of blood, are being put aside.

 

[Brainster]

Again, you are conflating things. But let's go with your premise. Yes, of course they wanted peace but they wanted to anex other nations first. Remember, I keep saying over and over, it's the ends that they want. The ends that they want isn't eternal war.

But let's take your premise further, did the Americans want liberation or violence when the instigated the Revolutionary war? Was it simply a lust for death that cause the American Revolution? For your logic to hold it would have to be the case. No one who loved peace would engage in violence by your logic.

That said, what the citizens want from a war is quite different from what the leaders want. Hitler didn't run on a platform of being a megalomaniac war monger. He led the German people into the suicidal conflict on promises that had nothing whatsoever to do with eternal war.

• Let me ask you, do you honestly think the German people looked forward to the war because of their contempt of peace?
• Do you think the German people hoped the war would never end? Really?

Nice strawman there. I said Nazis, you said "German people".

You can't seriously think that the Palestinians legitimately want peace, if their precondition is defeating (i.e., destroying) Israel.

 

[Virus]

I was actually going to use Randfan's argument as a parody but then he parodied himself by putting it forward as a serious proposition.

LMAO when he did it though.

 

[RandFan]

Nice strawman there. I said Nazis, you said "German people".

And I've spoken of both at length. Odd you need to single out the "Nazis" who were not the entire German people. Odd that you didn't take the time to answer my question though after you corrected me. Why is that?

You can't seriously think that the Palestinians legitimately want peace, if their precondition is defeating (i.e., destroying) Israel.

As those of you on the right refuse to even acknowledge my argument demonstrate you will not discuss this in good faith. But thanks for letting me make my argument again.

• All conflicts require defeating one's enemy prior to peace.
• That fact does not obviate wanting peace.

So, like Rainman you just keep repeating the trite point that the Palestinians want to defeat Israel, well yeah, duh. Those who fought the British in the American Revolutionary war had a precondition of defeating the British. The French who fought against their Monarchy had a precondition of defeating the Monarchy. That's the nature of war.

See it goes like this.

1. Citizens want peace.
2. Citizens want liberty and or food and or other goals.
3. Citizens are willing to give up peace for a period of time in order to get their goals but it does NOT MEAN that they want eternal violence, right? Right?

 

[RandFan]

I was actually going to use Randfan's argument as a parody but then he parodied himself by putting it forward as a serious proposition.

LMAO when he did it though.

One more time a failure to address arguments and points. One more time a purely rhetorical response. A fallacious one at that, appeal to ridicule. Nice Virus. Really nice.

 

[Virus]

Destroying a state and forcing the survivors to live as dhimmis under an Arab kleptocracy isn't really peace is it?

 

[RandFan]

Destroying a state and forceing the survivors to live as dhimmis under an Arab kleptocracy isn't really peace is it?

Nice straw man. More black and white thinking. As if an oppressed people must be monolithic in their views. As always an entire group of people must be stereotyped by the extremes and excess of the leaders and outspoken members of an oppressed people. Typical right wing rhetoric to demonize and entire people (as the extremists do to the Israelis BTW). You are no better than them. You are incapable of seeing the humanity of the Palestinians. All you know is knee jerk condemnation of your fellow humans because you ARE them. You just belong to a different xenophobic tribe. It's convenient for you to focus on the propaganda to achieve your dehumanizing of the Palestinians in the precise same way the extremists dehumanize Israelis.

You think yourself superior but you are the same. So long as people on both sides think as you do there will be no peace. So I can honestly say that thanks to those like yourself who prefer contempt and dehumanizing your supposed enemies rather than to seek peace.

I can say confidently that you are precisely who and what you criticize.

And you are STILL arguing in bad faith.

 

[Brainster]

And I've spoken of both at length. Odd you need to single out the "Nazis" who were not the entire German people. Odd that you didn't take the time to answer my question though after you corrected me. Why is that?

As those of you on the right refuse to even acknowledge my argument demonstrate you will not discuss this in good faith. But thanks for letting me make my argument again.

• All conflicts require defeating one's enemy prior to peace.
• That fact does not obviate wanting peace.

So, like Rainman you just keep repeating the trite point that the Palestinians want to defeat Israel, well yeah, duh. Those who fought the British in the American Revolutionary war had a precondition of defeating the British. The French who fought against their Monarchy had a precondition of defeating the Monarchy. That's the nature of war.

See it goes like this.

1. Citizens want peace.
2. Citizens want liberty and or food and or other goals.
3. Citizens are willing to give up peace for a period of time in order to get their goals but it does NOT MEAN that they want eternal violence, right? Right?

Of course not. Now, do you perhaps see that the preconditions the Palestinians want before they accept peace are unrealistic?