Rogue Waves

So what's your percentage for weather-related sinkings caused by rogue waves - zero?

Absent any credible evidence to the contrary, yes.

First of all, it's not "my suggestion" -- it's Wolfgang Rosenthal's. Second, Rosenthal is a research scientist at Germany's GKSS research center and is quoted in several articles as an expert on the subject of rogue waves. Third, I don't think most ship sinkings are going to be featured prominently on the Internet.


Your few minutes of research hardly constitutes the last word on this matter.

Good. So out-do me.


False premises according to you and Jaggy, apparently based on a Wikipedia article, a few minutes of research by you, and your belief that attributing 10% of weather-related ship sinkings to rogue waves is unsupported.

As apposed to no research whatsoever by you.

A pair of deuces still beats a handful of nothing.

I bet you can't name three "large ships" sunk by bad weather this year.


One conservative assumption for which I've now provided support. What is it that I've misrepresented or lied about?

The source and credibility of your numbers.

If you think Rosenthal has done that, produce some evidence.

Already done. Weather-related sinkings of large ships do not occur at the rate he said. They do not occur within that order of magnitude. We've seen that already from the Lloyds data. Therefore, he's neither an expert nor credible. By presenting him as such, you are both lying and misrepresenting him.
 
So what's your percentage for weather-related sinkings caused by rogue waves - zero? According to -- http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php?id=257&print=1 -- "Naval architects have estimated that more than a third of the 60 super carriers that went down due to sudden flooding between 1969 and 1994 were victims of rogue waves." So, that percentage is more than three times higher than my percentage. Further, a 1/3 ratio applied to 60 super carriers sinking between 1969 and 1994 would mean that more than 20 such carriers sank due to flooding caused by rogue waves over a 25 -year period -- almost one such carrier per year.

I'm afraid this citation detracts from your overall credibility, rather than enhances it.

First, enviroliteracy's citation of unnamed and unmentioned "naval architects" is hardly evidence; without further citation, there's no way for me to evaluate the competence of these architects, and the putative error of their conclusions strongly suggests either incompetence or mallicious editing.

But beyond that, your very numbers aren't holding together.

Rosenthal suggests that 100 "large ships" per year go down due to "bad weather."
Enviroliteracy suggests that 60 "supercarriers" sank over due to "sudden flooding" over a twenty-five year period. I assume that "supercarriers" in this context means large container ships -- if they mean aircraft carriers, then they're obviously wrong because there aren't 60 supercarriers in the combined navies of the entire world. (Th e US has about 20,everyone else is much smaller.)

That works out at less than three losses per year, which leaves 97 unaccounted for. Either most of the "bad weather" losses are not due to "sudden flooding," (which in turn implies that they weren't losses to rogue waves, because "sudden flooding" is more or less what rogue waves, by definition, do), or the vast majority of large ship losses are not supercarriers, but tankers. (Those are basically the two kinds of large ships out there; container ships and oil tankers.)

So let's look at tankers for a moment. We can broadly divide tankers into two categories, full, and empty, and note that a rogue wave is much more dangerous for a full tanker than for an empty one (an empty one can ride higher, is more responsive, and can if necessary adjust its balance with seawater for safety). I think it's fair, therefore to assume that of the tankers sunk by bad weather (in general) and by rogue waves in particular, at least 50% would be in cargo and result in a substantial oil spill.

The ITOPF (see also this site)maintains and publishes statistics on all oil spills since 1970. In no year of record keeping has there been more than 32 major spills. That's not sinkings, and that's particularly not rogue-wave related sinkings. If you seriously suggest that there have been over 90 supertanker sinkings per year, that would imply at least 45 major spills each year, a number that has not been seen.

Furthermore, the largest spills (as we would expect from a fully-laden tanker sinking) do not happen out in the open ocean, where rogue waves occur. (Neither do the smaller ones, in point of fact.) Of the twenty major oil spills described in the cited report, only four happened in the open ocean. Similarly, of all the major spills described by cause over a nearly thirty-year reporting period -- of 312 major spills, only 44 were due to "hull failure" (which might be caused by a rogue wave), and another 38 were due to "unknown cause" which could be anything from a rogue wave,. an attack by Iraqi fighters, or alien abduction. The vast majority, as you might expect, were from "grounding" (as in the case of the Exxon Valdez) or "collisions" -- not waves and weather.

So, what do we have. Three container ships sunk per year due to "sudden flooding." An effective maximum of three full oil tankers sunk per year from all causes in recent years, since there have been only three major oil spills. Of course, there weren't three oil tanker sinkings per year, or anywhere near. Then add another three hypothesized empties for good measure.

That's a maximum of nine ships sunk per year. Where are the other 91?

I suppose I should accept that it's at least theoretically possible that we have, not three sinkings of unladen tanker ships per year, but 94. Given that there are only about 3000 oil tankers in the international trade, the idea that one tanker in thirty would sink each year defies plausibility. So that's out.

So, container ships don't sink that often. Full oil tankers don't sink that often. Empty container ships don't sink that often. There aren't enough military aircraft carriers in the world to sink that often.

What's left?


Again, if you think Rosenthal and all the articles I cite are inaccurate, produce some evidence of your own to counter Rosenthal and those articles.


91 missing ships is evidence enough for me.
 
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  1. According to the Lloyd's Register, 26 ships of over 200 meters have been declared a "total loss" over the past five years, that is, about five ships a year. The 26 included 1 containership, 11 tankers and 14 bulkers. Of course, a "total loss" can be caused by a number of things, including fires, collisions, groundings, etc., as well as freak waves. I have no working link, but can only ask you to trust me.
  2. Stephen Van Dyck, the chairman of INTERTANKO (see here), writes that
    As a life long ocean sailor I was interested in your reprinting of the Yahoo "rouge waves" article. As the Chairman of a NYSE tanker company and Intertanko, the world's tanker owner/ operators entity, I would like to correct a factual misstatement in the article that I know will interest those who sail the oceans. It is simply not true that "super tankers" have sunk/disappeared from rouge waves. We know of no such accident. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/archived_Detail.asp?key=2866
I'll hopefully be able to come back with harder evidence in case someone doubts the quality of the information.
 
So, container ships don't sink that often. Full oil tankers don't sink that often. Empty container ships don't sink that often. There aren't enough military aircraft carriers in the world to sink that often.

What's left?

I should also add that this argument equally discredits the numbers cited by enviroliteracy. The numer of large container ships and of large tanker ships in the world is approximately the same, about 3000. We've already seen that there are an effective maximum of three or so major spills from the oil industry, very few of which actually result in (or from) a sinking, for whatever cause. Most of them are simple hull breaches, collisions, or groundings in which the tanker doesn't sink. I'd be suprised to learn that one in ten of these major spils was actually related to a sunken ship (if nothing else, the oil quantity is insufficient in almost all cases; see the figures).

So a more reasonable estimate for the number of tanker ships sunk is something like three tends of a ship per year; three ships per decade. But if only three tanker ships are sunk per decade, why are nearly 60large container ships sunk over two and a half decades? The answer, I suspect, is that they aren't, that the numbers cited by enviroliteracy are either false or misleadingly edited, and quite possibly downright fictitious.
 
  1. According to the Lloyd's Register, 26 ships of over 200 meters have been declared a "total loss" over the past five years, that is, about five ships a year. The 26 included 1 containership, 11 tankers and 14 bulkers. Of course, a "total loss" can be caused by a number of things, including fires, collisions, groundings, etc., as well as freak waves. I have no working link, but can only ask you to trust me.
  2. Stephen Van Dyck, the chairman of INTERTANKO (see here), writes that
I'll hopefully be able to come back with harder evidence in case someone doubts the quality of the information.
You somehow neglected to mention this letter on the above website that you cite:

"From Sir Robin Knox-Johnston: What is terrifying about the report on
rogue waves is not that they exist, sailors have known that for centuries,
but that scientists refused to even accept that the sailors stories might
be accurate. How many sailors lives have been lost because officialdom
failed to accept the fact of frequent rogue waves and insist on designs and
scantlings capable of withstanding them?"
 
All right, I am going to broach the meta-argument again.

WHAT IS YOUR POINT, RODNEY?

Rather than quibble about the statistical data and hold our breath over the difference between 3 ships per year and 200, lets concede there are ships sunk by rogue waves.

Let's pretend. Rogue waves act exactly like Rodney and the four articles he continuously relies upon are 100% correct. What is the point of your argument. You are either simply denegrating science, or you have some spectacular solution to help humanity. If you are denegrating science, you cannot then say that your argument is for science to fix the problem now. If scientists are as incompetent as you impliedly allege, then they are not the solution. If you don't have an independent solution, then you are simply a troll. You will not listen to the logic of the data and arguments presented in this thread, and you will never be free of the need to blame what you don't understand.

Rant complete, recipes may begin.
 
You somehow neglected to mention this letter on the above website that you cite:

"From Sir Robin Knox-Johnston: What is terrifying about the report on
rogue waves is not that they exist, sailors have known that for centuries,
but that scientists refused to even accept that the sailors stories might
be accurate. How many sailors lives have been lost because officialdom
failed to accept the fact of frequent rogue waves and insist on designs and scantlings capable of withstanding them?"
Do you know who he is, and what kind of boats he is an expert on? For what it's worth, I have met Sir Robin, and I don't think he ever said anything about supertankers being lost to freak waves. I doubt he ever was on one.

However, I'm not discussing the frequency of freak waves, but the number of big ships sinking because of them.

By the way, are you dismissing the statement from Stephen Van Dyck, one of the world's real experts on supertankers?
 
WHAT IS YOUR POINT, RODNEY?
As in where's the "off" switch? Let's try this.

That establishment scientists, including oceanographers, need to drop their elitist attitudes and pay more attention to the real world.
I've talked to them and they said "We're sorry. We'll do better."

All finished! These things are so easy when you know how to handle them.

MandosV said:
Rant complete, recipes may begin.
Given the location shown with your avatar, you'll like this.

Grillswith
Specialty of the University Diner
in Charlottesville, Virginia
Until it went out of business


Preparation of self:
About 2:00 am, realize that you've been studying multivariate calculus, applied telekinesis, and biomechanics since daybreak without eating anything. Head downtown to the Diner.

Assuming you can't travel back in time, you'll also need to perform the...

Preparation of recipe:
Melt a pat of butter on a griddle or non-stick pan. Fry one or two glazed yeast (not cake) doughnuts -- Krispy Kreme is the right kind for a proper Grillswith. Those not able to get KK can be forgiven for substituting less suitable doughnuts, but they must be the plain glazed yeast kind.

When the glaze has caramelized a bit, put it on a melmac plate, top each doughnut with a scoop of vanilla ice cream, provide with fork, eat pretty darned fast. Order another. You're a young student, you'll easily burn off all those calories in no time.

Yum.

[edited to attribute third quote block to MandosV]
 
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Do you know who he is, and what kind of boats he is an expert on? For what it's worth, I have met Sir Robin, and I don't think he ever said anything about supertankers being lost to freak waves. I doubt he ever was on one.
Sir Robin "[w]ent to sea in the Merchant Navy in 1957 as a Deck officer . . . In 1992 RKJ was invited to become President of the Sail Training Association, a youth development organisation which operated two topsail schooners “Sir Winston Churchill” and “Malcolm Miller” and also organised the annual Tall Ships races. Before he retired in 2001 £11 million had been raised to replace these two vessels with two larger brigs “Prince William” and “Stavros Niarchos” . . . " See http://www.robinknox-johnston.co.uk/

However, I'm not discussing the frequency of freak waves, but the number of big ships sinking because of them.
Understood, and I agree that we need to gather more facts on that issue.

By the way, are you dismissing the statement from Stephen Van Dyck, one of the world's real experts on supertankers?
No, but I hardly think he's objective.
 
Understood, and I agree that we need to gather more facts on that issue.
The facts are here:

According to the Lloyd's Register, 26 ships of over 200 meters have been declared a "total loss" over the past five years, that is, about five ships a year. The 26 included 1 containership, 11 tankers and 14 bulkers. Of course, a "total loss" can be caused by a number of things, including fires, collisions, groundings, etc., as well as freak waves.

In other words, if about 5 big ships are lost each year for whatever reason, how can 200 of them be lost due to freak waves over 20 years?

No, but I hardly think he's objective.
Hehe. Maybe you could come up with some supertankers lost to freak waves?
 
The facts are here:

According to the Lloyd's Register, 26 ships of over 200 meters have been declared a "total loss" over the past five years, that is, about five ships a year. The 26 included 1 containership, 11 tankers and 14 bulkers. Of course, a "total loss" can be caused by a number of things, including fires, collisions, groundings, etc., as well as freak waves.

In other words, if about 5 big ships are lost each year for whatever reason, how can 200 of them be lost due to freak waves over 20 years?
Does Lloyds specify a reason? It's possible that only 26 huge ships were lost over the last five years, but that 174 were lost over the previous 15 years. No one is claiming that all 200 were lost due to rogue waves, but the claim is made on a number of web sites that many of the 200 were lost due to rogue waves.
 
That establishment scientists, including oceanographers, need to drop their elitist attitudes and pay more attention to the real world.
Considering most psychics, new agers and other assorted space cadets are usually going on about how they hate scienctists for trying to investigate their 'phenomenon' this is an arguement I rarely see. That said, having read through this thread, I still fail to see how you can conclude that scientists and governments should have been spending lots of resources to investigate rogue waves based on a few anecdotes, when there are thousands of other things with a similar amount of evidence as well. In fact, based on your premise, the majority of biologists should be out looking for Bigfoot and Yetis - there are a lot more anecdotes for that then there were for rogue waves. Do you agree?

Oh, and I guess astonomers should be dedicating their telescope time to find Planet X, rather than other more 'mundane' astronomical pursuits.
 
In fact, based on your premise, the majority of biologists should be out looking for Bigfoot and Yetis - there are a lot more anecdotes for that then there were for rogue waves. Do you agree?
No, because it's the credibility of the anecdotes that's the key. If one or two not-so-upstanding citizens say that they saw Bigfoot and offer up a grainy photo, that isn't much in the way of proof. If, on the other hand, the entire crew of a ship say that the ship was struck by a 25-30 meter high wave and offer up the ship with damages consistent with being struck by such a wave, that's a lot in the way of proof.
 
A claim is made on a number of web sites that many of the 200 were lost due to rogue waves.

And for many reasons, some of which are outlined above, that claim is incoherent and irrational and should be dismissed out of hand because is almost certainly a lie.

Any damn fool can put nonsense up on a web site. Most of them do. I'm sorry that you seem to want to join their number.
 

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