Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS

[Upchurch]

Third trimester abortions may occur for a number of reasons but if one is talking about the whim of the mother, that isn't done.

Yes, actually it is done. Rarely, but not never.

Source?

I didn't say it's done. I said some extremists WANT it to be legal. Really, learn to read.

Oh.

Well.

This is awkward.

 

[Ziggurat]

No it is not actually done, ever.

Let me elaborate more on this bit, since you cut rather important context, namely what "it" actually is. By quoting me but leaving out what I was responding to, you make it seem like I'm saying abortion immediately before birth happens, but that's not what I said. So let's include what I was responding to:

Third trimester abortions may occur for a number of reasons but if one is talking about the whim of the mother, that isn't done.

Yes, actually it is done. Rarely, but not never.

None of your sources actually contradict me on this. And like I said, you can pretend all you want to that Kermit Gosnell doesn't exist, but he does. And he did abortions at all stages of pregnancy, including third trimester, for reasons other than protecting the health of the mother. Now, maybe most abortion providers aren't willing to do that, but I see no reason to think he's the only one who did.

Oh, and as for performing abortions immediately before birth, Gosnell did the equivalent. He induced labor, delivered babies, and then murdered them.

 

[Ziggurat]

Source?

For example:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013041...trictattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

"Gosnell and his employees performed abortions long after the legal limit. The doctor’s unorthodox methods, especially with late second-trimester and third-trimester pregnancies, virtually mandated the premature delivery of live babies – whose spinal cords he would then routinely slit. These practices persisted for many years without interruption by any regulatory body."

This isn't the norm, and I never claimed it was. But you would be naive to believe Gosnell is the only abortion doctor in the whole country willing to do late elective abortions.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

For example:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013041...trictattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

"Gosnell and his employees performed abortions long after the legal limit. The doctor’s unorthodox methods, especially with late second-trimester and third-trimester pregnancies, virtually mandated the premature delivery of live babies – whose spinal cords he would then routinely slit. These practices persisted for many years without interruption by any regulatory body."

This isn't the norm, and I never claimed it was. But you would be naive to believe Gosnell is the only abortion doctor in the whole country willing to do late elective abortions.

sounds like the law of Roe, if enforced, would have been perfectly adequate in this case.

 

[Upchurch]

Let me elaborate more on this bit, since you cut rather important context, namely what "it" actually is. By quoting me but leaving out what I was responding to, you make it seem like I'm saying abortion immediately before birth happens, but that's not what I said. So let's include what I was responding to:

The funny part is that your highlight is missing the rather important context of what SG saying, namely 3rd trimester abortion at the whim of the mother isn't done.

None of your sources actually contradict me on this.

It isn't her burden to support your claim. Are you now withdrawing it since it was "out of context"?

And like I said, you can pretend all you want to that Kermit Gosnell doesn't exist, but he does. And he did abortions at all stages of pregnancy, including third trimester, for reasons other than protecting the health of the mother. Now, maybe most abortion providers aren't willing to do that, but I see no reason to think he's the only one who did.

Oh, and as for performing abortions immediately before birth, Gosnell did the equivalent. He induced labor, delivered babies, and then murdered them.

You're referring to the convicted serial killer as if he were merely an abortion provider acting on the whims of his patients? Is John Wayne Gacy merely a clown who gave people the show they were demanding, too?

Zig, this is ridiculous. You're talking about a serial killer as evidence of 3rd trimester abortions at the whim of the mother. Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim?

 

[cosmicaug]

I didn't say it's done. I said some extremists WANT it to be legal. Really, learn to read.

No. What you said is that third trimester abortions on the whim of the mother are done. Like... today I thought I might dye my hair purple but after a coffee I decided on a third trimester abortion instead.

 

[Upchurch]

For example:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013041...trictattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

"Gosnell and his employees performed abortions long after the legal limit. The doctor’s unorthodox methods, especially with late second-trimester and third-trimester pregnancies, virtually mandated the premature delivery of live babies – whose spinal cords he would then routinely slit. These practices persisted for many years without interruption by any regulatory body."

This isn't the norm, and I never claimed it was. But you would be naive to believe Gosnell is the only abortion doctor in the whole country willing to do late elective abortions.

It doesn't support your claim, unless you are now amending it. No one ever said that late 3rd trimester abortions never happened. They're saying it was out of medical necessity, not on the whim of the mother. Do you have any evidence of that?

 

[cosmicaug]

And like I said, you can pretend all you want to that Kermit Gosnell doesn't exist, but he does. And he did abortions at all stages of pregnancy, including third trimester, for reasons other than protecting the health of the mother. Now, maybe most abortion providers aren't willing to do that, but I see no reason to think he's the only one who did.

Oh, and as for performing abortions immediately before birth, Gosnell did the equivalent. He induced labor, delivered babies, and then murdered them.

I would think that bringing up the one who did the thing to point out how doing the thing is a problem when they are serving a life term for doing the thing might not be as convincing as you think.

 

[bruto]

I didn't say it's done. I said some extremists WANT it to be legal. Really, learn to read.

I realize it's fashionable these days to argue about just about anything, but I never thought the meaning of that admonition was one of them.

 

[Ziggurat]

sounds like the law of Roe, if enforced, would have been perfectly adequate in this case.

I'm not saying it wasn't. And again, if you trace our exchange back, my point from the beginning was that wanting to legalize very late elective abortions is a fringe position, with little support. But it is a real position some people take.

 

[Ziggurat]

The funny part is that your highlight is missing the rather important context of what SG saying, namely 3rd trimester abortion at the whim of the mother isn't done.

Except I just showed you documented evidence of cases where it was.

You're referring to the convicted serial killer as if he were merely an abortion provider acting on the whims of his patients?

What, you think he was kidnapping women off the streets and forcing abortions on them?

No. His patients wanted abortions. They primarily went to him specifically because he was willing to do very late elective abortions when other providers were not.

Gosnell may be unique in his heartlessness and carelessness (although even that I wouldn't guarantee, given how long he practiced). But I have no reason to believe he's the only abortion provider willing to skirt the law. Had he done his job competently, he never would have been caught. You would be a fool to believe he's the only doctor in the country who performed elective third trimester abortions, and that his patients were the only patients who wanted them.

 

[Upchurch]

I'm not saying it wasn't. And again, if you trace our exchange back, my point from the beginning was that wanting to legalize very late elective abortions is a fringe position, with little support. But it is a real position some people take.

Source?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Source?

Alex Jones.

 

[Upchurch]

What, you think he was kidnapping women off the streets and forcing abortions on them?

Not the kidnapping, but yes, the article I linked to mentions at lest one involuntary late term abortion.

No. His patients wanted abortions. They primarily went to him specifically because he was willing to do very late elective abortions when other providers were not.

You’re making assumptions without evidence. Is that the basis of your entire argument?


ETA: but this is off topic. The claim is that there is a fringe that wants to make elective late-term abortions legal. Nothing Gosnell did had anything to do with making late term abortion legal, any more than Gacy was trying to make rape, torture, and murder legal.

 

[ZiprHead]

Michigan activists submit signatures to put abortion rights on the ballot in November
The initiative, if certified and passed, could enshrine the right to procedure in the state’s constitution.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I didn't say it's done. I said some extremists WANT it to be legal. Really, learn to read.

Zig: "Yes, actually it is done. Rarely, but not never."


I can read just fine.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Michigan activists submit signatures to put abortion rights on the ballot in November
The initiative, if certified and passed, could enshrine the right to procedure in the state’s constitution.

Which SCOTUS would then find a way to overturn or cut the legs out from under.

 

[Upchurch]

Which SCOTUS would then find a way to overturn or cut the legs out from under.

I suspect a Federal abortion ban is more likely, assuming the GOP gets their hands on both Congress and the White House. I suppose it'd be a race to see which one they could get into place first.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let me elaborate more on this bit, since you cut rather important context, namely what "it" actually is. By quoting me but leaving out what I was responding to, you make it seem like I'm saying abortion immediately before birth happens, but that's not what I said. So let's include what I was responding to:



None of your sources actually contradict me on this. And like I said, you can pretend all you want to that Kermit Gosnell doesn't exist, but he does. And he did abortions at all stages of pregnancy, including third trimester, for reasons other than protecting the health of the mother. Now, maybe most abortion providers aren't willing to do that, but I see no reason to think he's the only one who did.

Oh, and as for performing abortions immediately before birth, Gosnell did the equivalent. He induced labor, delivered babies, and then murdered them.

SG: "Third trimester abortions may occur for a number of reasons but if one is talking about the whim of the mother, that isn't done."

Zig: "Yes, actually it is done. Rarely, but not never."

I don't see any link supporting your baby murderer but I looked him up. Wiki says he was a convicted serial killer. Kermit Gosnell


That's your excuse for supposedly not being wrong? Oh brother.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Gosnell may be unique in his heartlessness and carelessness (although even that I wouldn't guarantee, given how long he practiced). But I have no reason to believe he's the only abortion provider willing to skirt the law. Had he done his job competently, he never would have been caught. You would be a fool to believe he's the only doctor in the country who performed elective third trimester abortions, and that his patients were the only patients who wanted them.

Gossnell was convicted of multiple murders. That should be proof enough that what he did was not a standard medical procedure. Where is your actual evidence (not just your speculation) that third-trimester abortions are performed in any except the most extreme circumstances?

ETA: For reference:

Levy: Abortions later in pregnancy typically occur because of two general indications: lethal fetal anomalies or threats to the health of the mother. Some fetal development problems or genetic anomalies do not show up or develop until later in pregnancy. Some examples might include anencephaly (described above) or limb-body wall complex, when the organs develop outside of the body cavity. With conditions like these, the fetus cannot survive out of the uterus.

Likewise, when conditions progress or appear that severely compromise a woman’s health or life, abortion may be the safest, medically indicated procedure. These conditions can also reduce the possibility of fetal survival. They might include premature rupture of membranes (where the fluid surrounding the fetus is lost before labor), uterine infection, preeclampsia, placental abruption and placenta accreta. Women under these circumstances may have extensive blood loss or septic shock that can be fatal.

It’s important to note, if a woman’s health or life is at risk and the fetus is viable, delivery is pursued, not abortion.....
For women who need abortion care in the third trimester, there are very few places across the country where this care is accessible, and it is very rarely covered by insurance. Typically, these procedures would cost in the thousands of dollars. Moreover, many women would have to travel by plane to reach these providers, so in addition to the cost of the care, they are incurring the cost of travel and lodging.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-explainer/index.html