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"Roe v. Wade for Men"

Child support belongs with the child. Mom cant gove it away, its not hers to give. The right to support follows the child whether he is in the custody of mom, dad, or gramma.

If this opt out plan went into effect the result would be an explosion of the wellfare roles. Practially speaking its a horrible idea and bad public policy. The result would be to FORCE poor people into aborting children that they wouldve kept otherwise.
 
The difference is that the legal right to "unilaterally abandon future offspring," as you so loadedly put it, already exists for one sex but not the other. It's not created out of thin air; it's already there, but is applied unequally. I propose applying it equally.
Is that not exactly the right being argued for here? It's certainly not about reproductive rights; nothing being proposed here can alter the biological fact of parenthood. This is exclusively about parental responsibilities and how we assign them.

How does the right to own a widescreen TV follow from any other recognized right? As far as I'm aware, no "class of people" is guaranteed ownership of a 52" HD plasma screen, unfortunately for me.
It would be said to emerge from property law in general in the same way you argue that the right to forfeit parental responsibilities emerges from privacy rights. I can, if I have the money, walk into a store and purchase a TV. I can't do this if I don't have the money. This is no more a guarantee of ownership than the right to abortion guarantees that you will get an abortion. But in practice, there are those who can purchase a big ol' HDTV and those who can't. This right appears to be a social construct in the same way that parental responsibility is. Why are those who can't afford the TV not entitled to pursue an equal protection claim according to the model you've presented?

No, you both have a legal right to enter into a business transaction with a television retailer. You also both (if I had my way, anyway) have equality of opportunity with which to obtain the money necessary. There is no legal issue here.
Yes, but in practice, someone with money or credit can do this and someone with neither cannot. To be clear, you're arguing that the reproductive situation creates a de facto inequality which must be addressed, while this one need not be. Why?

Discrimination is acceptable when there's a legitimate concern at issue. I simply think that upholding equal protection is a more important concern than the ones you mention. It's a fundamental concept of our society -- possibly the most important -- and deserves to be treated as such. In this case, it would override nebulous and subjective ideas such as "for the public good." Again, this is the kind of thinking that has led to the eminent domain abuses of the last few years.
It hardly seems nebulous to me--it is good for a society to ensure proper care for children. I think you'll have a difficult time arguing that a man's interest in retaining his wealth supercedes a child's interest in being supported.

No, my argument has always been that equality under the law does not equate to equality in all aspects of life. The law must treat everyone equally, but that doesn't mean life has to.
But you have yet to put forward a satisfying explanation of why equal protection should apply to fact of law that doesn't yet exist, even if the practice does. You're then falling back on a defense of equal protection when challanged on this point. As it happens, I don't think either argument works, but it seems very much like you're affirming the consequent here.

And slavery was legal in this country for close to a hundred years. Would you use that as evidence to undermine the way we interpret our rights today? Attitudes change. I think they've changed for the better, and I have no problem interpreting our rights more broadly than they have been in the past. I'm more concerned with theory than with practice in this debate.
Well, I certainly wouldn't have appealed to the 14th amendment prior to the passage of the 14th amendment. I would have made my argument in more general terms. My point wasn't that the Civil Rights Act or the ADA are unjustified, but that arguments on constitutional equal protection grounds were not sufficient to extend the rights in question.

What is the legal issue here? Does a person have an innate right to HIV treatment, or does he rather have a right to spend his money as he chooses (which follows from the rights to privacy and free association)? I argue for the latter.
It would probably something about an implied constitutional right to general welfare. There is no such thing as an innate right to HIV treatment as far as I can tell, but then neither have I discovered an innate right to anything else. Both of these seem to be legitimate interests; remaining alive on the one hand, and retaining the fruits of your own labor on the other. It's a difficult calculation, no doubt, particularly in light of diminishing returns. But I don't think it's an either/or question.
 
So what's to keep a guy from signing away his parental responsibility but contacting the child anyway?

The child will still want to know its father.

Can the child search for and find and contact its dad?

Our society still considers even a bad dad to be better than no dad at all.

Right now, even if the dad pays no child support at all, or is years and years behind on it, he can sue for visitation and win, because that is considered better for the child.
that's not necessarily true. In many cases a father has been unable to even obtain parental rights if he hasn't given any support to the child, emotionally or financially. Ask many lawyers that work in the family courts system and they will tell you that the majority have dated, traditional opinions on who's better for the child- even if the father is available, able, and willing to be a father, custody is awarded to the mother 90% of the time and the fathers are restricted to visitation periods equivilant to prison visitation.
Can a signed away dad then sue for visitation rights?

Meg
I don't think so. I think thats the whole reason of terminating parental rights, to not have anything to do with them. Its kinda like adoption in that files and records are sealed of the biological mother and father until what, like 18? or never? I'm not sure about that. As well as records being sealed from a sperm donor. The sperm donor couldn't sue for visitation out of morbid curiosity.
 
I have the perfect solution....Require women to pay "child support" payments if they put their kid up for adoption, or abort it. That would punish everybody equally and give everybody the same options right?
 
chris epic wrote:
In many cases a father has been unable to even obtain parental rights if he hasn't given any support to the child, emotionally or financially.

I would like you to show some evidence of this. I would like to know more particulars, too. Do you have any?

Here are a few links that say otherwise:

http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/Can_a_father_be_denied_visitation_if_he_is_behind_on_child_support
http://www.wprc.org/fathersrights.phtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support
http://www.divorcehq.com/articles/visitationissues.html
https://newyorkchildsupport.com/pdfs/paternitybro.pdf
http://www.dadsrights.org/blog/?a=xdforum&xdforum_action=viewthread&xf_id=3&xt_id=28


Child support and visitation are two separate rights. Of the child. Neither parent can legally deny the child the right to receive both.

I know of no cases where the court denied a father visitation that was not because the court had reason to believe that contact with the father would endanger the child. Can you show some?

Meg
 
You might be suggesting that a man's right to not choose a financial burden supercedes the right of a child to be fully supported.

I don't think he is, because we are talking about situations involving a fetus, not a child. We don't usually say that a fetus has a right to be fully supported.

If a man legally relinquishes all interest in a fetus, then it is up to the mother to decide if she can properly support a child before going ahead with the pregnancy.

You also might suggesting that a man's right to not choose a financial burden supercedes a child's right to know and be supported by both parents, which is considered a pretty fundamental right both here in the U.S. and around the world.

It cannot be all that fundamental if a woman can negate it entirely just by putting her newborn up for adoption, but more importantly you are once again skipping over the distinction between a fetus and a child.

These are straw men.

Beyond the family court, and human rights issues in general, and childrens rights laws in particular, those two statements could and would have a profound affect on our welfare and social services, to name just a couple. What you might be suggesting implies that it's not necessarily the parents' responsibility to care for their children. You might be suggesting that the state should indeed be taking more responsibility for raising our children. Are we willing to accept what that might entail? If we accept the notion that society should take more of the financial responsibility of raising children, what about other aspects? Can the state then start declaring parenting methods, for instance? How many other rights, as parents are we willing to give up?

Whereas this is a human pyramid made out of straw men.

If you really want to make that change, I think you're going to have to put forth a lot better reasons than "If a woman can get an abortion, why can't a man? It's just not fair."

If we are talking about "fundamental rights", fairness under the law has to be fairly fundamental too don't you think? You can't just decide arbitrarily that rights you like are fundamental and inalienable, but rights you don't like are just whiny demands.

There's no such thing as a on-paper-only abortion. Because there's no such thing as an on-paper-only child.

What is on paper is the set of legal rules surrounding children. You are trying to imply that the on-paper rules you like are somehow grounded in unalterable reality, and the on-paper rules you do not like are mere scraps of paper. This is just special pleading.

There is no fundamental reason a child cannot be raised properly by a single parent, especially if they have enough money to do so, and in fact it happens all the time.
 
I have the perfect solution....Require women to pay "child support" payments if they put their kid up for adoption, or abort it. That would punish everybody equally and give everybody the same options right?
if that's not a skewed way of summing everything up here on this thread, I don't know what is.

I would really like someone to explain to me, thoughtfully, why this wonderful thing called the "Women's Rights Movement" (no, I'm not being sarcastic) was pursued, and in many ways successful, in an effort to equalize the rights between genders in the name of egalitarianism, yet now there are gross inequalities between men and women in respect to reproductive and parental rights, and gender stereo-typing- against men or fathers. Why does it seem like I don't have a legitimate grievance- why does it sound like I'm being told "tough"? How come, although I have a fundamental and biological obligation to protect and care for my children, weather their unborn or born, I either don't have any legislated rights for that, or I am a check book whereas the mother is a nurturer, etc, etc.
 
Kevin_Lowe,"I don't think he is, because we are talking about situations involving a fetus, not a child. We don't usually say that a fetus has a right to be fully supported."

Once that baby is born its a child. It doesn't matter how many paper abortions you filed. If that baby is born and you are the father, you are obligated to support the child until adulthood.

I am really amazed that any of you really support this idea.

What you are supporting, in effect, is a recreation of "bast*rds", quite similar to those of the 19th century.

From wikipedia:

In many societies, present and historical, the law has not given illegitimate persons the same rights of inheritance as legitimate ones, and in some, not even the same rights....

and

...By the final third of the 20th century, in the United States, all the states had adopted uniform laws that codify the responsibility of both parents to provide support and care for a child, regardless of the parents' marital status, and giving illegitimate and adopted persons the same rights to inherit their parents' property as anyone else."

So why bother passing new laws? Why not just work to repeal the laws passed regarding illegitimate children, and we can go back to the good old days, when all children born out of wedlock were automatically unable to expect any kind of support from their fathers unless the fathers chose to acknowlege them?

Isn't that pretty close to what you're asking for?

Or are you thinking maybe you should be able to "opt out" of parenting responsibilities even if your married to the mother, too?

Meg
 
NO ONE is telling you, Chris, that you can't be a father.

Find a nice girl who is amenable to your idea and have all the kids you want.

You can be a dad all you want.
 
Im kinda shocked so many people are for this too. It makes no sense from a public policy standpoint. Youd be violating the equal protection rights of the child by treating him different from the children of married people. And why wouldnt a dad choose the opt out?? Its make it that much easier for mom and baby to suck up welfare money. Mom could be living in public housing while dad pulls up in his new car when he visits his kid.

Abortion is not like getting a haircut. Its a rather invasive proceadure. It really bothers me that people want to force women to have abortions by using financial blackmail.
 
How come, although I have a fundamental and biological obligation to protect and care for my children, weather their unborn or born, I either don't have any legislated rights for that, or I am a check book whereas the mother is a nurturer, etc, etc.

You made the thing, you are responsible for it. Even if you didnt mean to have a child. You started the fire, now your responsible for the damage. Oh should the taxpayers cover your reckless behavior.
 
-on a side note, has anybody found any resolution or solidarity on this forum, within a thread, after beating their heads into it for several weeks? :)

I just finished putting together an annotated bibliography for a pursuasive essay I was assigned in my english class at school. The paper is about Father's Rights in respect to abortion. I have some pretty good sources from both sides of the spectrum so I can attempt to write a fair and balanced thesis arguement. Until then, I am totally exhausted from this thread. When I finish my paper I'll post it in a new thread and maybe we can start from there. I bet you're all excited, aren't you ;) Okay- so I'll see you around. Meg, I'll find that evidence you're looking for. Its in one of the 4 books I have in front of me right now but I'm way tired right now.

See you later.

PS Tmy- to your last post- you can put that same statement next to a mother that wants to get an abortion (in some people's opinion) and especially if they want to give the child up for adoption and they don't want to notify the father or the father didn't file for paternity rights fast enough. But then you have mothers who just flat out can't afford it, as Meg stated earlier. So what about fathers that can't afford it? I have a friend that makes $8 bucks an hour. That's about $1,020 a month after taxes. He has $500/month garnished for child support. That leaves him with $520 a month to live off of. His rent alone is $350 a month- that leaves him with $170 a month for EVERYTHING else he needs to function and live....that's not much. But he's not pittied for many reasons, alot of which are gender stereo-types. However, the mother can cite getting an abortion or an adoption because she can't afford it. So I don't know, I just know somethings not right here.
 
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Once that baby is born its a child. It doesn't matter how many paper abortions you filed. If that baby is born and you are the father, you are obligated to support the child until adulthood.

Stating your conclusion as a fact is not an argument.

So why bother passing new laws? Why not just work to repeal the laws passed regarding illegitimate children, and we can go back to the good old days, when all children born out of wedlock were automatically unable to expect any kind of support from their fathers unless the fathers chose to acknowlege them?

Well, one would be an opt-out system and one would be an opt-in system. I think there's a lot to be said for making the man involved commit themselves one way or another before the fetus becomes a child.

Or are you thinking maybe you should be able to "opt out" of parenting responsibilities even if your married to the mother, too?

This is a textbook straw man. If you can't argue with what they actually said, make up a much more extreme position and imply they meant that instead.
 
Im kinda shocked so many people are for this too. It makes no sense from a public policy standpoint. Youd be violating the equal protection rights of the child by treating him different from the children of married people.

I think you are confused about what equal protection under the law is supposed to mean. Sometimes one parent is dead or absent for any number of reasons, and while it's good public policy to try to iron out such inequalities to some extent there is no general rule that everyone must start out equal.

Maybe there should be, I don't know, but there isn't.

And why wouldnt a dad choose the opt out?? Its make it that much easier for mom and baby to suck up welfare money. Mom could be living in public housing while dad pulls up in his new car when he visits his kid.

Do you think maybe some fathers love their children and want to take care of them? Or is that inconceivable? What do you think is going on in the vast majority of families, Tmy? Do you really think most fathers only support their families because the law makes them?

Abortion is not like getting a haircut. Its a rather invasive proceadure. It really bothers me that people want to force women to have abortions by using financial blackmail.

Where's your "they knew the risks" rhetoric now? It seems that in your view of the world men have all the responsibilities and no emotional involvement that matters, whereas women have no responsibility for becoming pregnant and their emotional desires are paramount.

Bear in mind, I'm for "forcing" men to renounce their parental rights by "using financial blackmail" too. If you can't afford a child, don't have one.
 
Meg: "Or are you thinking maybe you should be able to "opt out" of parenting responsibilities even if your married to the mother, too?"

Kevin Lowe: "This is a textbook straw man. If you can't argue with what they actually said, make up a much more extreme position and imply they meant that instead."

I didn't make up something in order to imply something, I was asking a question. I don't recall reading in this thread anyone talking about whether or not this was only for single men or if married men could do it too.

I guess by your reply you believe it should only be acceptable for single men to do "opt out". (is that right?)

If so, why?

How about married, but separated?
What about married, but a woman other than the wife is the pregnant one?
What if they were married and living together when the child was conceived, but then they separated?
 
Abortion is not like getting a haircut. Its a rather invasive proceadure. It really bothers me that people want to force women to have abortions by using financial blackmail.

A vasectomy is not like getting a haircut. It's rather an invasive procedure. It really bothers me that people want to force men to have vasectomies or be subject to financial blackmail.

You made the thing, you are responsible for it. Even if you didnt mean to have a child. You started the fire, now your responsible for the damage. Oh should the taxpayers cover your reckless behavior.

Ah, I see. "Having sex," even using a condom with a woman who swears she's infertile = "reckless behavior." Got it.
 
I didn't make up something in order to imply something, I was asking a question. I don't recall reading in this thread anyone talking about whether or not this was only for single men or if married men could do it too.

I guess by your reply you believe it should only be acceptable for single men to do "opt out". (is that right?)

If so, why?

I took it for granted that an implied or explicit part of the marriage contract was agreeing to support any children that were the result of the union.

That could be up for grabs in theory, if we wanted to revise how marriage is viewed, but I think it would be relatively radical to do so.

How about married, but separated?

I don't know. Married but separated is an in-between state, so it could legitimately go either way. I think there should be a clear rule just so people know what to expect, but I don't have any strong opinion about what the rule should be.

What about married, but a woman other than the wife is the pregnant one?

Same as unmarried in that situation, since the man has not made a formal legal commitment to the pregnant woman.

What if they were married and living together when the child was conceived, but then they separated?

Depending on the circumstances of the separation and the stage of the pregnancy, I might or might not support a man's right to opt out at that point.

If the egg was fertilised on Day One, and they filed for divorce on Day Two, then the woman still has ample time to decide what to do if the man opts out so I see no reason to forbid it.

If the man files for divorce the day before the child is born, then the woman does not have that elbow-room to choose so I'd be inclined to tell the man that it is too late and he is paying child support.
 

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