Rocks VS. Acid

[Mephisto]

It's been awhile since we've heard from the Israeli apologists so I thought I might mention the fact that protests regarding the relocated settlers in Israel turned extremely violent recently. The settlers themselves were filmed dousing Israeli troops with acid which looked very uncomfortable.

Now, should we credit the Israeli troops for their restraint in handling the Jewish settlers, or should we ask WHY there are no casualties when they are confronting Jewish settlers as opposed to Palestinians? Israeli apologists have always maintained that the Israeli troops are under attack (usually from Palestinian boys with rocks) and deserve the right to defend themselves (which usually involved shooting someone), but now that they are under attack by countrymen, they show amazing restraint.

Is empathy that powerful (I've always asserted that it was), or is acid less dangerous than rocks thrown by boys?

 

[Jocko]

I've seen paint thrown, but not acid. Could you offer a source on that?

 

[Cleon]

Well, keep in mind that these soldiers and cops are going in unarmed.

I need hardly point out that this is markedly different from when they forcibly evict Palestinians, which they've been doing for decades. (But somehow the videos of crying Palestinian women never make it to CNN.)

 

[Rob Lister]

It's been awhile since we've heard from the Israeli apologists ...

Are you engaging in a non-specific personal attack on unnamed members of this forum? I don't much follow the Israel issues personally (though I do follow the subsequent suspension fallout from debates revolving around it). Still, given the side of the issue you're taking, I think you're on safe ground.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Rocks VS. Acid

Still, given the side of the issue you're taking, I think you're on safe ground.

 

[Jocko]

*Sigh* I guess I have to do all the work once again. There's this mention on CNN:

In the Kfar Darom settlement on Thursday, several police officers were lightly burned when protesters threw a substance believed to be paint thinner mixed with water and other chemicals on them.

Hardly the same thing as acid, Mephisto. Diluted paint thinner?! That's the kind of thing we dared the stupid kids to drink back in grade school.

Please substantiate your claim of "acid throwing" or ease up on the inciteful language. It's counterproductive.

 

[Rob Lister]

Please substantiate your claim of "acid throwing" or ease up on the inciteful language. It's counterproductive.

It depends very greatly on what it is you're trying to produce.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Mephisto
Now, should we credit the Israeli troops for their restraint in handling the Jewish settlers, or should we ask WHY there are no casualties when they are confronting Jewish settlers as opposed to Palestinians?

When you see Jewish snipers targeting Israeli soldiers using unarmed Jewish settlers for cover, then you will see casualties. Until then, your comparisons are not valid.

My own opinions on the rightness of the Gaza pull out are mixed, I can understand both sides of the issue. My personal response is to simply cross my fingers and hope that whatever happens it helps advance the cause of peace.

I do however feel deep sympathy for the people who are being evicted from their homes and for these communities that are being torn apart. I can only imagine what it is like to have a political decision resulting in having your home, your business, your place of worship, and your childrens school destroyed and to be forcably moved somewhere else. Financial compensation? That's something, but it doesn't change that one life is being brought to an end, forcing you to create a new one from scratch.

I think the tendency to demonize or idolize these people according to the needs of our political beliefs should be resisted. They are human beings who live lives similar to our own, who have become accustomed to routines similar to our own, and who have needs and ambitions that are similar to our own. They are nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Jocko]

It depends very greatly on what it is you're trying to produce.

I'm trying harder these days to give the benefit of the doubt. But if Mephisto can't/won't back up his emotionally loaded statement with so much as an AP story, then I will have no choice but to come to the same conclusions you have.

This forum suffers from a lack of optimism; I'm just trying to be part of the solution.

 

[Mephisto]

Sure

I've seen paint thrown, but not acid. Could you offer a source on that?

I caught accounts of it on CNN, but you can find them elsewhere, including:

"The Associated Press
Updated: 8:28 a.m. ET Aug. 19, 2005

GADID, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops quickly cleared out a synagogue full of dozens of opponents to the Gaza pullout on Friday, avoiding a repeat of previous day’s violence in which youths holed up on a rooftop pelted soldiers with acid, oil and sand."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8931552/

For the record, Israeli troops were UNARMED as they cleared the settlers so apparently the restraint wasn't their idea, which leads me to conclude that the Israeli government may have suspected that their military would have handled Jewish settlers in much the same manner.

 

[Jocko]

Re: Sure

I caught accounts of it on CNN, but you can find them elsewhere, including:

"The Associated Press
Updated: 8:28 a.m. ET Aug. 19, 2005

GADID, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops quickly cleared out a synagogue full of dozens of opponents to the Gaza pullout on Friday, avoiding a repeat of previous day’s violence in which youths holed up on a rooftop pelted soldiers with acid, oil and sand."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8931552/

Thank you.

For the record, Israeli troops were UNARMED as they cleared the settlers so apparently the restraint wasn't their idea, which leads me to conclude that the Israeli government may have suspected that their military would have handled Jewish settlers in much the same manner.

Do you think IDF forces could apprehend a suspected Palestinian terrrorist in a similarly unarmed manner? I know they wouldn't, but could they?

 

[Mephisto]

*Sigh* I guess I have to do all the work once again. There's this mention on CNN:



Hardly the same thing as acid, Mephisto. Diluted paint thinner?! That's the kind of thing we dared the stupid kids to drink back in grade school.

Please substantiate your claim of "acid throwing" or ease up on the inciteful language. It's counterproductive.

I think I've proven that acid was thrown on Israeli troops, at least as well as anyone who wasn't there with some litmus paper in their pocket. I think I deserve an apology, in a non-specific sort of way.

 

[Jocko]

I think I've proven that acid was thrown on Israeli troops, at least as well as anyone who wasn't there with some litmus paper in their pocket. I think I deserve an apology, in a non-specific sort of way.

I really don't think you do. You opened a new thread with an allegation, and didn't support it with any kind of reference. I then endeavored to find out what you were talking about, and an equally reputable source called it diluted paint thinner, not acid. Hence my skepticism.

So I provided the first reference for your accusation, and you think you're owed an apology? Think again.

There's a difference betweeen "acid" and something "acidic." Our sources differ on exactly which it is. Just so you know, other acidic things include coffee, coca-cola and buffalo wings. So how about we just see how it all shakes out before anyone demands an apology.

 

[Mephisto]

Re: Re: Rocks VS. Acid

When you see Jewish snipers targeting Israeli soldiers using unarmed Jewish settlers for cover, then you will see casualties. Until then, your comparisons are not valid.

Oh? And at what point would we admit that, HAD the Israeli soldiers gone in armed, that was a definite possibility? Who knows if it will yet occur? Tensions have understandably risen dramatically, in spite of the general attitude of, 'Jews do not attack/oust Jews,' there have been injuries. At the risk of stereotyping, to an unthinking soldier a Jew, looks like a Muslim, looks like a Mexican or a Gypsy through a rifle scope. The risk of expecting soldiers operating in the same area, against basically the same circumstances to react instinctively is noteworthy, hence the reason they were disarmed by the government.

Personally, I hope the comparisons don't become valid:

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/eyewitness/Gaza/Our_humanity_in_the_balance.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir04252005.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/08/29/mideast/

When My own opinions on the rightness of the Gaza pull out are mixed, I can understand both sides of the issue. My personal response is to simply cross my fingers and hope that whatever happens it helps advance the cause of peace.

I agree 100%. This is a step that I've been advocating Israel take for a very long time. In order to keep the peace some concessions must be made. It is the first few that are the most difficult since any concession is seen by extremists on either side as weak, but if the strongest party is the first to concede something valuable it puts the responsiblity of providing something equally valuable from originally displaced party. Since the Palestinians are relatively poor people the best they can offer is an end to the insurgency that has killed so many innocents in past decades. What is seen as a horrible mistake by apologists, is seen by the world as the first step toward peace by a country willing to admit mistakes. America should be so big!

When I do however feel deep sympathy for the people who are being evicted from their homes and for these communities that are being torn apart. I can only imagine what it is like to have a political decision resulting in having your home, your business, your place of worship, and your childrens school destroyed and to be forcably moved somewhere else. Financial compensation? That's something, but it doesn't change that one life is being brought to an end, forcing you to create a new one from scratch.

Again, I agree with you 100%. My Native-Americaness has helped me empathize with the Palestinian people, and now helps me understand the plight of the Jewish settlers. I have had friends tour Israel, put in time (a city boy's idea of summer camp) in a kibbutz and even move to Israel. I'd heard from them that the Palestinians primarily work in service-oriented jobs and are often treated with disdain or disrespect by many Israelis. Hopefully, the newly displaced Israelis won't meet with the same welcome the eastern Europeans got when the cheering from the dropping of the Iron Curtain died out.

Oh, for the record, a law was recently passed in the U.S. by the Supreme Court that would allow for local or state government to forcibily "relocate" you on a whim.

When I think the tendency to demonize or idolize these people according to the needs of our political beliefs should be resisted. They are human beings who live lives similar to our own, who have become accustomed to routines similar to our own, and who have needs and ambitions that are similar to our own. They are nothing more and nothing less.

I couldn't agree with you more, Mycroft. This is the very same thing that so many of us have been saying about the Palestinian people for so long. I'm interested in how the Israeli apologists (and not just the non-specific ones here) will react. It's a definite weakening from an apologist standpoint, yet the Israeli government thinks it's a smart move. I'm just wondering what the apologists, who have supported the Israeli government and military without question, will say now that the Israeli government has disarmed the Israeli military in charge of moving Israeli settlers?

Still, you are correct in saying that the most important viewpoint is that of a human. Being displaced from your home, friends, family and neighborhood would certainly rank high on the list of the worst things that could happen to you. Empathy can be a bitter pill, but hopefully one that will serve to blur the lines between religion and culture to order to better see the human before us.

 

[Mephisto]

I really don't think you do. You opened a new thread with an allegation, and didn't support it with any kind of reference. I then endeavored to find out what you were talking about, and an equally reputable source called it diluted paint thinner, not acid. Hence my skepticism.

So I provided the first reference for your accusation, and you think you're owed an apology? Think again.

There's a difference betweeen "acid" and something "acidic." Our sources differ on exactly which it is. Just so you know, other acidic things include coffee, coca-cola and buffalo wings. So how about we just see how it all shakes out before anyone demands an apology.

You must be right! I'm sure it's the liberal media who is making this more of a story than it really is. After all, who would respond to headlines like:

ISRAELI SETTLERS THROW DONALD DUCK ORANGE JUICE ON SOLDIERS

As I said in my post to Mycroft, it takes a big person/country to admit a mistake.

 

[CplFerro]

These eastern countries seem to have a thing for acid-throwing. I've seen tv reports of how throwing acid in women's faces for "honour" reasons is common in India.

But where do these people get all this acid? Is it sold down at the local five and dime, or what? I'm imagining Apu from the Simpsons setting up a big pyramidical display of acid cannisters. "Oh is it very very good quality generic acid Mister Simpson. Only $5.99 - half off today only! Buy two! You never know when you'll need to douse Marge or maybe Lisa."

 

[Mephisto]

I really don't think you do. You opened a new thread with an allegation, and didn't support it with any kind of reference. I then endeavored to find out what you were talking about, and an equally reputable source called it diluted paint thinner, not acid. Hence my skepticism.

So I provided the first reference for your accusation, and you think you're owed an apology? Think again.

There's a difference betweeen "acid" and something "acidic." Our sources differ on exactly which it is. Just so you know, other acidic things include coffee, coca-cola and buffalo wings. So how about we just see how it all shakes out before anyone demands an apology.

You must be right! I'm sure it's the liberal media who is making this more of a story than it really is. After all, who would respond to headlines like:

ISRAELI SETTLERS THROW DONALD DUCK ORANGE JUICE ON SOLDIERS

As I said in my post to Mycroft, it takes a big person/country to admit a mistake.

 

[Mycroft]

At the risk of stereotyping, to an unthinking soldier a Jew, looks like a Muslim, looks like a Mexican or a Gypsy through a rifle scope.

Unbelievable.

Have you always seen soldiers as being not-human?

 

[Mephisto]

HA!

These eastern countries seem to have a thing for acid-throwing. I've seen tv reports of how throwing acid in women's faces for "honour" reasons is common in India.

But where do these people get all this acid? Is it sold down at the local five and dime, or what? I'm imagining Apu from the Simpsons setting up a big pyramidical display of acid cannisters. "Oh is it very very good quality generic acid Mister Simpson. Only $5.99 - half off today only! Buy two! You never know when you'll need to douse Marge or maybe Lisa."

I'd read that also, especially since researching this story. Apparently the idea of throwing acid (NOT orange juice, not jalapeño peppers, not douche) is a sort of cultural insult.
_________

"The option of throwing acid into the face of a person with whose beliefs one disagrees is not one that is often pursued, and the fact that we can find two instances of it on the Ukrainian Archive, and that both were perpetrated by Jews, makes us wonder if there is something about Jewish culture not only that inspires such an absolute confidence in one's rectitude as to justify extreme cruelty to others, but makes us wonder too if there is something within Jewish culture that points to acid throwing as an appropriate instrument for expressing this cruelty."

http://www.ukar.org/fauris02.html
____________

Still, if this is a cultural thing you may be right. I wonder if they sell different strengths of acid (as a non-specific, unnamed person might have you believe), say for instance, lemon juice for a crabby boss, battery acid for a cheating wife (edited to add) or watered-down paint thinner for soldiers who have come to displace you?

 

[Mephisto]

Unbelievable.

Have you always seen soldiers as being not-human?

No, only soldiers who can see a child, an old man, a young mother or a young boy or girl through a rifle scope and still shoot.

The point I was trying to make is the fact that there are few physical differences between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that SOMEONE must have realized that, which is why I believe the Israeli soldiers were unarmed.

For the record, I was a military sharpshooter and I'm a disabled veteran. In my experience there have been few valid excuses for a sniper to shoot a non-combatant, yet this has happened with relative frequency. I AM asserting that it is difficult for the individual soldier to react differently in a similar situation, and NOT that soldiers are "not-human." As a matter of fact, I would assert the opposite, soldiers are VERY human, and we can't expect them to turn the savagery on and off. Post-Traumatic Stress and a bevy of emotional/psychological problems suffered by returning vets proves it to be a problem. Hence, the Israeli government was smart enough to disarm soldiers moving the settlers.