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Robot consciousness

Genetic programs are not created by any consciousness.


Okay...

Take a set of computer instructions, say Lisp.

Randomly generate Lisp programs.

Use a fitness function, natural selection, combinations, and mutations to combine the best performing lisp programs into a new population.

Repeat until you fully satisfy the fitness function.

Tada, you have a program that was not generated by any conscious entity.


Sorry mate, but you've just outlined a process that is entirely driven by human consciousness and what we program the computers to do.

I'll try to elaborate on your explanation:

[Human consciousness] Takes a set of computer instructions, say Lisp.

[Human consciousness] Randomly generates Lisp programs.

[Human consciousness] Use a fitness function, natural selection, combinations, and mutations to combine the best performing lisp programs into a new population.

[Human consciousness] Repeats until [they] fully satisfy the fitness function.

Tada, [Human consciousness] has a program that was generated by [Human consciousness] created software.

Can you show where the computer consciousness comes into this series of events?
 
But the fact is, there is no such book, there is no paper Internet. That's why I chose that example.
Sorry to snip so soon, but this is the point where the plot is lost.

I can hypothesize that Piggy does not have neurons. In that case you have no consciousness. Convinced you are not conscious?

Paul's hypothesis is that there is a pen/paper system completely modeling a human brain. What is the point of saying "but if it wasn't a complete model, then there wouldn't be consciousness"? It's true, but misses the point.

We are postulating a pen/paper system that completely mimics all functions of the brain.
 
roger said:
As to Paul, I didn't notice that you stipulate that inputs are similarly slowed down, though I think it is assumed. If so, computational theory tells us algorithms are independent of processing speed. If inputs are still real time, it is perhaps dubious that consciousness would result, since only a tiny fraction of the available real time data stream could ever be processed. But that depends on a lot of assumptions about the characteristics of the underlying algorithm.
Indeed. And if I have circadian clocks available, then the algorithms might not be independent of processing speed.

So, your question boils down to: is the brain TM equivalent? If not, is it still independent of clock speed?

I dunno is the only honest response to both questions. If it turns out the brain is TME, then yes, any paper and pencil implementation would also be conscious. If not, than who can say?
There you go.

~~ Paul
 
Another thought experiment: assume a multiverse where time runs at different rates, and there is the possibility for interaction between universes.

We live in universe A. Universe B runs at 10^50 faster than we do.

1. for each neuron in your brain, universe B calculates its response to its inputs on paper, and than causes your neuron to output a signal based on that calculation. You, of course, cannot detect this occurrence. Are you still conscious?

2. Assuming you answered 'yes', would the beings in B perceive the paper calculations as being conscious? Probably not, but that is a perception based on relative speeds. But would they be conscious? How would they not be, as they are perfectly replicating everything going on in your nervous system?

3. If not, where is the ghost in the machine in your own body? You have 2 systems, exposed to exactly the same inputs, producing the exact same outputs, yet one is conscious, one is not? Where does the difference lie?

Let's see if I can get my mind around step 1. A little tighter focus there.... Let's assume that at each synapse the outputs from neurons upstream vanish into B, then beings in B calculate whether the input meets the threshold and then send back a 1 or a 0 answer, and if it's 1, then the downstream neuron(s) fire(s).

If the amount of time our staff in hypertime universe B takes to do their calculations = the amount of time it takes for synaptic exchanges to happen here in A, then there would be no difference in my consciousness.

There would be no transference of consciousness over to universe B, however, because a set of disembodied "fire" or "don't fire" calculations is not sufficient to create sentient awareness. For that, you need a specialized arrangement of neurons that's designed to handle the task of generating consciousness -- you need the actual brain.

So no, our staff is not, in fact, replicating everything going on in my brain.

The particular shape of the brain is needed, the actual physical stuff.
 
Okay...




Sorry mate, but you've just outlined a process that is entirely driven by human consciousness and what we program the computers to do.

I'll try to elaborate on your explanation:

[Human consciousness] Takes a set of computer instructions, say Lisp.

[Human consciousness] Randomly generates Lisp programs.

[Human consciousness] Use a fitness function, natural selection, combinations, and mutations to combine the best performing lisp programs into a new population.

[Human consciousness] Repeats until [they] fully satisfy the fitness function.

Tada, [Human consciousness] has a program that was generated by [Human consciousness] created software.

Can you show where the computer consciousness comes into this series of events?

What on earth? I just said the programs are not generated by consciousness, and you ask me to show where computer consciousness comes from????

Zeuss: I am a human.
roger: Prove to me that you are an elephant! I'll eat my leg!
Zeuss: ????

Meanwhile, genetic programs are produced by computers, not humans.
 
Sorry to snip so soon, but this is the point where the plot is lost.

I can hypothesize that Piggy does not have neurons. In that case you have no consciousness. Convinced you are not conscious?

Paul's hypothesis is that there is a pen/paper system completely modeling a human brain. What is the point of saying "but if it wasn't a complete model, then there wouldn't be consciousness"? It's true, but misses the point.

We are postulating a pen/paper system that completely mimics all functions of the brain.

That's not something that you can simply postulate. It's like saying I have a circle that has all the features of a triangle.

The fact is, the pen/paper system can't mimic all the functions. It can only mimic what it can mimic. You can't merely postulate nonsense.

(My Internet example was just an analogy for what I was saying about hardware, btw.)
 
Zeuzzz said:
Can you show where the computer consciousness comes into this series of events?
Uh, no, because Roger said:
roger said:
Genetic programs are not created by any consciousness.

If you want to argue that the fact that the infrastructure was set up by humans means that the resulting programs were generated by humans, then you also have to argue that the fact that X is generated by humans means that X is actually generated by physics, since humans exist within the infrastructure of physics. So everything is generated by physics, which is presumably not conscious.

~~ Paul
 
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Let's see if I can get my mind around step 1. A little tighter focus there.... Let's assume that at each synapse the outputs from neurons upstream vanish into B, then beings in B calculate whether the input meets the threshold and then send back a 1 or a 0 answer, and if it's 1, then the downstream neuron(s) fire(s).

If the amount of time our staff in hypertime universe B takes to do their calculations = the amount of time it takes for synaptic exchanges to happen here in A, then there would be no difference in my consciousness.

There would be no transference of consciousness over to universe B, however, because a set of disembodied "fire" or "don't fire" calculations is not sufficient to create sentient awareness. For that, you need a specialized arrangement of neurons that's designed to handle the task of generating consciousness -- you need the actual brain.

So no, our staff is not, in fact, replicating everything going on in my brain.

The particular shape of the brain is needed, the actual physical stuff.
Proof?

You are giving some special quality to neurons that doesn't exist (to our knowledge).

If I built your exact brain out of computer chips, with exactly the same speed, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

If I built your exact brain out of metal cogs, with exactly the same speed, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

If I split that metal cog brain in half, separated by 1 mile, and connected the separated cogs with 1 mile long axles, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

If I remove those 1 mile long axles, and replace them with a computer that reads what one set of cogs do, and then transfers that data to the separated cogs via a network and some servos, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

If I replace that computer, network, and servos with somebody doing the calculation by pen/paper, and running back and forth to turn the cogs by hand, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

If I then split each of those half brains in half, use the person doing pen/paper and turning to connect those quarters, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

Continue until every cog is completely separate, no axles, and all of them are turned by hand by the human, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

Human has a brain storm - I don't need this physical cog sitting here (metal is expensive), I can just draw a picture of the cog and its current position on a piece of paper, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

Human has another brain storm - I can just numerically represent the cog's position with a degrees position 0...360, saving me drawing it, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

Human has another brain storm - running a mile between all these pieces of paper is tedious, I'll just keep them in this one room, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

Human has another brain storm - I don't really need to keep 1 trillion slips of paper, I can just write all the info on one (big) piece of paper, is that not a brain that would generate consciousness?

That last step is Paul's OP. Tell me, at what point in this scenario do we stop having a hardware system? The pen and paper are the hardware in this last step.

In short, I don't get why you don't think pen and paper is hardware. I can pick them up, they are hard, they are ware. They are hardware.

If it is the parallel aspect, there is nothing stopping us from taking half your neurons out of your brain, and setting up a switching network so that half the time your brain is configured like the remaining neurons, and the other half of the time it is configured like the neurons we removed. Then time slice and your brain will function the same.

i think you see where I will take this - remove half the remaining, install a new switching network, half again, another network, until you are down to 1 neuron. Then, I can substitute that 1 neuron with paper and pencil. Again, where exactly does your consciousness disappear?
 
Piggy said:
That's not something that you can simply postulate. It's like saying I have a circle that has all the features of a triangle.
Why is it like that? What part of a TM-equivalent algorithmic process can I not emulate with paper and pencil?

This whole paper and pencil thing gets away from my original question, which is whether there is a speed at which the robot's brain would no longer be conscious. We agree that if the brain is TM-equivalent then there is not. If the brain is not TM-equivalent, then might there be aspects of it that depend on real time? For example, is it possible that neural oscillation times are not arbitrary, but related to some real-time "clocks"? Perhaps the neural oscillation times are related to the speed at which typical natural events occur.

Actually, that must be the case, but is rather trivially obvious.

~~ Paul
 
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Meanwhile, genetic programs are produced by computers, not humans.


And the computers produce this how exactly? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm asking you a simle question, as I cant see how computers can do anything more than we consciously program them to do.
 
Zeuzzz said:
And the computers produce this how exactly? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm asking you a simle question, as I cant see how computers can do anything more than we consciously program them to do.
If a computer computed away for a year and wrote a complex program that did something useful, would you say that it is only doing what we programmed it to do? Isn't there some point where the generated program is so far removed from the human-programmed infrastructure (especially if randomness is involved), that you would acknowledge it is doing something new?

~~ Paul
 
And the computers produce this how exactly? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm asking you a simle question, as I cant see how computers can do anything more than we consciously program them to do.

Well, I tried to explain, let me try again. Please note I am talking about commercially available and research software - I am not postulating anything about what might happen one day. They are in use to do things like design more efficient auto engines, etc.

Take a functional programming language like Lisp.

Now (and yes, this is where human consciousness plays a role), create a module that uses a random number generator to create a lisp program. The program is completely random. Another module compiles the program and runs it against an externally provided fitness function. Another module does the genetic component - it takes two (or more) programs and combines them using rules very similar to the way our bodies splice genes together when sperm in egg meet. They are split in half and stitched together, and occasionally a mutation is injected. All random.

Okay, now those modules are all stitched together to do the following. A population of 10,000 (say) programs are generated automatically. They are run and each is evaluated with the fitness function, giving each program a score. The higher scoring programs "survive" and are passed on to the genetic module which slices and dices the programs together into a new population of 10,000 (say) programs. In other words, the programs are 'evolved' based on their fitness. Now, that new population is run against the fitness function, and the fittest of those are passed into the genetic module where they are sliced and diced, evolving into the third generation.

Now yes, that infrastructure program I just described was written by a human, of course. However, note that this program is creating entirely new programs, and that these programs are evolved, based on pretty standard genetics, until they become fit for some purpose.

So, say I want to create a program to sort a data set. I write a fitness function, say, like so:

Code:
   fitness = 0
   for each data element in the data set
      if data element i < data element i+1
         fitness += 1;
      else
         fitness -= 1;
I give that very simple fitness function to the computer, and off it goes, eventually evolving a program that sorts data.

Now sure, that fitness function was generated by my human brain, and so was the original program that generates the genetic programs. But the process itself of evolving the programs uses no human consciousness. Note the example I used of sorting numbers is something you'd never tackle using genetic programming - it is trivial to write a good sort routine. Instead, they are used for things we don't know how to do well - create a more efficient gasoline engine, predict weather, or whatever. We don't sit down and ponder "what would make a gasoline engine more efficient" and then try to write a program to help us design one, we merely write a fitness function that looks at how much fuel is consumed in an hour, and assigns a higher fitness to lower consumption, and then let the computer do the rest.

Ah, but there is still human conscious in that process, you exclaim! Who wrote that fitness function in the first place!?! Sure, but not at the point of actually creating the genetic programs (remember, the computer itself is writing programs - it is those programs which we call 'genetic programs', not the program that writes the program). And, I can happily postulate a random process that generates fitness functions, and a random process that generates the data set that the programs run against, removing all human consciousness from the system from beginning to end. that system would be essentially how the world created life. The universe is not conscious, the material systems in the universe are not conscious, yet through evolution they created conscious systems.

Note I am not claiming our current systems for genetic programs are producing consciousness - to be clear, they are not. But there is nothing fundamentally stopping them from doing so, if they were run long enough, where the fitness function would be doing the Turing test, say. ya, that would take a trillion years or so, but in principle it's entirely possible (assuming computer programs can be conscious).

Google 'genetic programming'. It's a fascinating tool, using evolution instead of logic and reasoning to create programs.

edit: there was a bit of hand waving in the above - trying to get a program to create a more efficient car engine purely by starting with lisp and random programs would work, but might need 1000 years to run. So, we help things along by creating a lisp like language, where primitives are things like "set cylinder bore width" and such, so we don't have to wait for the system to evolve procedures like that itself. But, we could wait for that to happen, if we wanted to. In the practical world we don't try to prove philosophical points, so we take the expedient route.
 
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A bit more, since it may not be clear. Say we want to evolve a program to compute restaurant tips at 20%, and the available functions are add, subtract, multiply, divide, negative, etc. So, for the first go around, the computer will generate random programs, not understanding at all that it is trying to compute restaurant tips. It may generate programs looking like:

Code:
(add 5)
(subtract 15)
(add (multiply (multiply (push)))
(multiply 3)
(add  2 (subtract 2))
... and about 10000 others
All those are pretty crappy. But, programs like (add 5) are a lot closer than "(add (multiply (multiply (push)))" which is essentially raising the bill to the fourth power. So, (add (multiply (multiply (push))) will get discarded, while programs like (add 5) and (multiply 3) will get passed on to the genetic program.

So, combining (add 5) and (multiply 3) could generate things like:

(add 3) - first term of first program, second term of second program
(multiply 5) - first term of second program, second term of first program
(add 4) - mutation of second term of first program
(divide 3) - mutation of first term of second program

Well, (divide 3) is already very fit, computing a 33% tip. So, this will receive a very high fitness rating, and it's 'genetic material' will be used many times in creating the next generation. (add 4) is somewhat less fit, so it will be used, but it's genetic material will be weighted less heavily, and get selected as a parent less often than (divide 3). (add (multiply (multiply (push))) is so unfit it never gets selected as a parent. I simplified a bit above, things don't actually get 'discarded', it's merely that their fitness rating is used to probabilistically choose parents. (add (multiply (multiply (push))) could actually be used to generate a few offspring, but its very unlikely, and its very likely the offspring will be even more unfit. In short, it quickly dies out.

A few generations along, we will have functions like
(divide 5.000102)
(subtract (divide 5) 0.00001)

Note the second one listed is very unlike how you would compute the tax, but it generates completely correct results once you round to the penny. In practice, the programs produced by this method are not only very unlike how a human would program it, it is completely unable to be understood by the human. This is a very simple case, so we see how subtracting 0.00001 from the correct answer creates an answer that is correct within the penny. But it is quite possible that the fittest program generated would have say 1000 terms in it, and it would take us quite a while to see how it reduces down to calculating the correct answer. And this is a simple case - just using arithmetic. When you talk about real problems, like routing signals through phone networks, designing car engines, people just cannot figure out why the program is generating useful results. Yet, it does.
 
I expected the onslaught.

I don't have time to respond, but I'll get back.

But yes, folks, believe it or not, that's what I'm saying -- consciousness doesn't exist at the neuron level and is invisible at that level.

What creates consciousness is how these neurons are arranged.

It's a purely macro/aggregate phenomenon.
 
Piggy,

I'm really curious to see what you come up with.

What creates consciousness is how these neurons are arranged.

Can you really show this? I have always thought these questions came down to faith. I await your next post with baited keyboard.
 
Piggy said:
But yes, folks, believe it or not, that's what I'm saying -- consciousness doesn't exist at the neuron level and is invisible at that level.

What creates consciousness is how these neurons are arranged.
What else would we believe? :D

shuttIt said:
Can you really show this? I have always thought these questions came down to faith. I await your next post with baited keyboard.
Surely you don't believe that full-blown human consciousness exists at the level of the neuron. Even if there is some mysterious mindon particle, completely hidden from our particle theories and our accelerators but required to endow zombie matter with consciousness, it's pretty clear that human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Otherwise we should be having metaphysical conversations with the wind.

I suppose you might believe that full-blown human souls exist separately and somehow invade the brain and animate it. But then we should be having metaphysical conversations with thin air. And not the kind John Edward has.

~~ Paul
 
What else would we believe? :D


Surely you don't believe that full-blown human consciousness exists at the level of the neuron. Even if there is some mysterious mindon particle, completely hidden from our particle theories and our accelerators but required to endow zombie matter with consciousness, it's pretty clear that human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Otherwise we should be having metaphysical conversations with the wind.

I suppose you might believe that full-blown human souls exist separately and somehow invade the brain and animate it. But then we should be having metaphysical conversations with thin air. And not the kind John Edward has.
Oh, it's not that I believe in any mystical wotnot that is specific to consciousness.... it's just that consciousness has properties that are absolutely different to anything else in science. It's unique. I agree that it's pragmatic to assume that consciousness is caused by the same substances and processes that we know and to a fair degree understand, but that doesn't make it so. If it does, then those substances and processes have some very surprising properties.

Really, who knows what consciousness is? All we're doing here is making a bunch of stated, and unstated, assumptions about it and then reasoning on that basis. We're never going to know if those assumptions are true. All of this is unfalsifiable.
 

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