Ed Rob Menard's FOTL Claims

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LightinDarkness said:
While I've had fun reading and watching Rob Menard fail, I think we should open up the discussion because this woo is growing and has been ever since 2009. Of course we know soverign legal woo has been around for decades, but I first noticed it being peddled on sites like Above Top Secret in the late 2000s where it, of course, got rave reviews as a way to FIGHT THE MAN. That was my first encounter with self-proclaimed sovereigns, and what amazed me about the woo is simply how insane it was and how little evidence mattered to those who believed. I know this is a characteristic of all woo, but there is just something about legal woo which really hits me as among the most bizarre/stupid (and its hard to compete for most stupid when looking through the flavors of woo!).

I'm sure I wasn't the first person to ever post about "soverign citizen" (using quotes to encompass all flavors of legal woo: freeman on the land, soverign citizens, etc.) on JREF but I think one of my threads was the first to get traction...which then quickly escalated and got buried under new threads. We quickly focused on Rob Menard who obviously is an easy target and was nice enough to keep slapping himself by posting here and being debunked routinely.

But I'd like to see the discussion grow now. One of the legal woos that I think is just as stupid (if not more so) than Menard's doctrine is this group:
http://splcenter.org/get-informed/i...all-issues/2012/summer/sins-of-the-sovereigns

I've posted about them before, but no one seemed interested - which surprises me. Here is a group that not only pushes all the cornerstones of soverign mythology (signing in blood, statements of intent, paper terrorism in courts, etc.) but believe that they are setting up the "real" government of the united States (small u - even capitalization woo!). Its got hundreds of people nation wide who have bought this whole sale and have elected themselves "congressmen" and "senators". Their leader (elected "President"!), Tim Turner, is a soverign mythology peddler who got his start in woo by selling get out of your mortgage via paper terrorism seminars.

I mean...how insane can you be? These people go around acting like they are the "real" government and the actual real government is just a big conspiracy which will one day fall and they will take over. The level of total disconnection from reality is among the worst I've ever seen.
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Good post. I largely dropped out of this thread a while back because Menard's arguments had become repetitive & tedious. However, I have recently looked into the origins of the Sovereign Movement & I'm amazed at what I've found. It's an amazing, bizarre dollop of Americana that goes all the way back to the 1980's.

This is the best summary of the whole business I've found:

http://www.adl.org/mwd/common.asp

Whats interesting is that this article was written 15 years ago & yet you can see that the Sovereigns of the 80's & 90's were pulling exactly same stunts that modern FMOTL are pulling today. Like a fungus Sovereign legal theory has propogated across the anglophone world.

http://www.adl.org/mwd/privlien.asp

http://www.adl.org/mwd/puretrust.asp
 
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gtm said:
Good post. I've largely dropped out of this thread a while back because Menards arguments had become repetative & tedious. However, I have recently looked into the origins of the Sovereign Movement & I'm amazed a what I've found. It's an amazing, bizarre dollop of Americana that goes all the way back to the 1980's.

This is the best summary of the whole business I've found:

http://www.adl.org/mwd/common.asp

Whats interesting is that this article was written 15 years ago & yet you can see that the Sovereigns of the 80's & 90's were pulling exactly same stunts that modern FMOTL are pulling today. Like a fungus Sovereign legal theory has propogated across the anglophone world.

http://www.adl.org/mwd/privlien.asp

http://www.adl.org/mwd/puretrust.asp
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From http://www.adl.org/mwd/puretrust.asp:

"Pure trust purveyors play upon the suspicions held by many Americans, but especially by members of the "patriot" movement, that the wealthy are "getting away with it." . . . Now ordinary Americans can utilize such secrets, claim proponents of pure trusts . . .

. . .The essay also identifies the Rockefellers and the Hunts as families that set up pure trusts. . .

. . .A partial list of purported "pure trust" owners who are or were probably unaware of the 'fact' includes:

. . . Boston Celtics . . . ."

------------

Okay, now these boys have gone too far!!!!! :mad:
 
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Good finds! I sense an imminent lull in my productivity at work.
 
gtm said:
This is fun. A comprehensive demolition of Sovereign legal arguments.

http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp

I've a mind to try & email Mr Sussman to see what he thinks about FMOTL & Menardian Consent Theory :D
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Yes, this is a good source. You can see many of the same lame arguments, poor reasoning and conspiracy theories used today in the modern sovereign citizen and freeman subcultures.

Sooner or later each of these theories gets rebottled and foisted on poor ignorant wannabe sovs and freemen. Just a few days ago I saw the “fringe on the flag” argument posted on the WFS forum as if it were a new insight sure to beat the courts into submission.

But the most dangerous and potentially harmful notion sovs and freemen have is the idea that they can use their perverted idea of the law to do the things they wrongly see government and it’s supposed co-conspirators doing.

This idea is the source of the reasoning behind phony liens placed on government officials, fake money orders and lines of credit. . . . and worst of all acting, while armed, in the role of authorized law enforcement officers.

Menard apes this basic approach, thankfully without the shotguns, when he tries to make his own law, create his own police force and make his own currency.

Since Menard feigns knowledge and intelligence and does not point firearms at anyone he fools wannabes on one hand while appearing, on the other, to the authorities more like a harmless kook in a fez.

I am waiting for the day one of his C3PO’s actually hinders law enforcement activities or one of his consumer credit marks actually tries to use a phony line of credit. If Menard is lucky these two efforts wouldn’t progress beyond the dues collecting stage.

I suspect the dues are really all he wants.
 
arayder said:
Yes, this is a good source. You can see many of the same lame arguments, poor reasoning and conspiracy theories used today in the modern sovereign citizen and freeman subcultures.

Sooner or later each of these theories gets rebottled and foisted on poor ignorant wannabe sovs and freemen. Just a few days ago I saw the “fringe on the flag” argument posted on the WFS forum as if it were a new insight sure to beat the courts into submission.

But the most dangerous and potentially harmful notion sovs and freemen have is the idea that they can use their perverted idea of the law to do the things they wrongly see government and it’s supposed co-conspirators doing.

This idea is the source of the reasoning behind phony liens placed on government officials, fake money orders and lines of credit. . . . and worst of all acting, while armed, in the role of authorized law enforcement officers.

Menard apes this basic approach, thankfully without the shotguns, when he tries to make his own law, create his own police force and make his own currency.

Since Menard feigns knowledge and intelligence and does not point firearms at anyone he fools wannabes on one hand while appearing, on the other, to the authorities more like a harmless kook in a fez.

I am waiting for the day one of his C3PO’s actually hinders law enforcement activities or one of his consumer credit marks actually tries to use a phony line of credit. If Menard is lucky these two efforts wouldn’t progress beyond the dues collecting stage.

I suspect the dues are really all he wants.
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The C3PO's are Menards 'Militia'. Freedom Valley is (was) his version of a 'Township'. Menard believes that the common law was 'stolen' / subverted but is vague about when this happened. The Sovereigns believe something very similar. The NOUICOR is a duplicate of this:

http://www.adl.org/mwd/trochdoc.asp

The whole thing is coming full circle. The far right here in the UK are starting to get interested in lawful rebellion & FMOTL. They are very supportive of the Lawful Bank, a Menard project. Little do they know that their bretheren over in the US invented this stuff 30 years ago.

These articles are interesting because they show how unoriginal & derivative 21st century FMOTL.
 
gtm said:
Menard believes that the common law was 'stolen' / subverted but is vague about when this happened.
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Ah, so that’s how Menard explains away the fact that his theories and methods don’t match up with common law and it’s relationship to statute law.

What a convenient argument!

This reminds me of how Eldon Warman claimed that Blackstone and the Pope subverted the meaning of “natural person“ three centuries ago. Warman, of course, developed the theory after the courts informed him that natural persons are subject to the rule of law and not excluded as Warman had wrongly argued during his trial for assaulting a traffic cop in 1999-2000.

gtm said:
These articles are interesting because they show how unoriginal & derivative 21st century FMOTL
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They are just rebottled snake oil.
 
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arayder said:
Ah, so that’s how Menard explains away the fact that his theories and methods don’t match up with common law and it’s relationship to statute law.

What a convenient argument!

This reminds me of how Eldon Warman claimed that Blackstone and the Pope subverted the meaning of “natural person“ three centuries ago. Warman, of course, developed the theory after the courts informed him that natural persons are subject to the rule of law and not excluded as Warman had wrongly argued during his trial for assaulting a traffic cop in 1999-2000.
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The early Sovereigns were quite specific about the subversion 'event'. They said it was when the US left gold standard in 1933. I would imagine the Jews are deemed responsible. They also had the benefit of being able to play around with constitutional history.

Obviously, British & Canadian FMOTL can't for want of a better turn of phrase 'access' this narrative. The result is weird theories about Magna Carta being unlawfully repealed. Who did this & why has never satisfactorily been explained. There are vague rumblings about the 'law society' etc, etc but they're effectively asking us to buy into a massive centuries long conspiracy involving a cast of millions.
 
gtm said:
The early Sovereigns were quite specific about the subversion 'event'. They said it was when the US left gold standard in 1933. I would imagine the Jews are deemed responsible. They also had the benefit of being able to play around with constitutional history.

Obviously, British & Canadian FMOTL can't for want of a better turn of phrase 'access' this narrative. The result is weird theories about Magna Carta being unlawfully repealed. Who did this & why has never satisfactorily been explained. There are vague rumblings about the 'law society' etc, etc but they're effectively asking us to buy into a massive centuries long conspiracy involving a cast of millions.
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There is a Canadian version of the "subversion event" that Eldon promoted. It revolves around the repeal of this section from the Constitution Act, 1867:

"2. The Provisions of this Act referring to Her Majesty the Queen extend also to the Heirs and Successors of Her Majesty, Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."

Since Victoria was Queen at the time, by repealing that section, Canada ceased to exist after she died. Presto! No validly enacted laws since January 22, 1901.

Of course the preamble of the Act still says this:

"Whereas the Provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick have expressed their Desire to be federally united into One Dominion under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, with a Constitution similar in Principle to that of the United Kingdom."

Actually, Canada's constitutional history is so murky and piecemeal that it should be a crackpot goldmine. Raise your game, Canadian FOTLers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_constitutional_documents
 
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D'rok said:
There is a Canadian version of the "subversion event" that Eldon promoted. It revolves around the repeal of this section from the Constitution Act, 1867:

"2. The Provisions of this Act referring to Her Majesty the Queen extend also to the Heirs and Successors of Her Majesty, Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."

Since Victoria was Queen at the time, by repealing that section, Canada ceased to exist after she died. Presto! No validly enacted laws since January 22, 1901.

Of course the preamble of the Act still says this:

"Whereas the Provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick have expressed their Desire to be federally united into One Dominion under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, with a Constitution similar in Principle to that of the United Kingdom."

Actually, Canada's constitutional history is so murky and piecemeal that it should be a crackpot goldmine. Raise your game, Canadian FOTLers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_constitutional_documents
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That's akin to asking a one legged man to win the proverbial **** kicking contest. We've seen the best the Canadian FMOTL have & he ain't all that. He's almost as dumb as the wretched UK freemen & that's a very low bar.

It's all most perculiar. We have a situation where the Sovereigns / FMOTL have had to find a conspiracy to fit their theory. Usually something happens & then the theory follows afterwards - Kennedy, Roswell, 9/11 etc. They do it in reverse.
 
gtm said:
That's akin to asking a one legged man to win the proverbial **** kicking contest. We've seen the best the Canadian FMOTL have & he ain't all that. He's almost as dumb as the wretched UK freemen & that's a very low bar.

It's all most perculiar. We have a situation where the Sovereigns / FMOTL have had to find a conspiracy to fit their theory. Usually something happens & then the theory follows afterwards - Kennedy, Roswell, 9/11 etc. They do it in reverse.
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Yeah. There is a certain warped creativity involved in fishing for historical or legislative "facts" that can be twisted into fitting the theory. They just kind of suck at it.
 
gtm said:
Obviously, British & Canadian FMOTL can't for want of a better turn of phrase 'access' this narrative. The result is weird theories about Magna Carta being unlawfully repealed. Who did this & why has never satisfactorily been explained. There are vague rumblings about the 'law society' etc, etc...
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It doesn't help that none of them seems to have the faintest clue as to what the Law Society actually is.
 
ComfySlippers said:
Apologies if this has been mentioned before:

The FSA / "The Lawful Bank"
(It's a .pdf but is safe)

It is relevant to Menard because on The Lawful Bank website "Paul" from The World Freeman Society, (where they sell Menard's scams), signs the intro.

ACCP anyone?

Just saying :)
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Here's the proof that Roger Hayes has got into bed with hardcore white nationalists.

http://iphone.thebritishresistance.co.uk/the-editor/1251-sunday-18th-september-the-lawful-bank

A brief review of this site will show you what I mean. Quite what Menard thinks about this profoundly unsavoury association is an unknown. He has been asked.
 
gtm said:
Here's the proof that Roger Hayes has got into bed with hardcore white nationalists.

http://iphone.thebritishresistance.co.uk/the-editor/1251-sunday-18th-september-the-lawful-bank

A brief review of this site will show you what I mean. Quite what Menard thinks about this profoundly unsavoury association is an unknown. He has been asked.
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Interesting....
(Bold is mine)

When you sign up to the Lawful Bank, which this article is about, it's totally free, you also need to click on "The Green Light" (on the lawful bank site) and sign up there, when you have done this you will receive your new credit/debit card through the post along with a letter, you then go to the "Green Light" section on the "Lawful Bank" site to register a pin number, this gives you full access to the site and you will find that you have 50L deposited in your account. The "welcome pack" referred to in GA's article above isn't strictly true, the "welcome pack" is the letter and bank card that you receive.
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So The Lawful Bank is issuing pretend credit/debit cards?!
...so Menardian.
 
ComfySlippers said:
Interesting....
(Bold is mine)

So The Lawful Bank is issuing pretend credit/debit cards?!
...so Menardian.
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Yeah... There were some posts about this in the LB thread over at Ickes back in February, suggesting that LB had some sort of connection to tgl.tv (a.k.a. The Hollistic Education Foundation Ltd) and TGL might be producing cards for LB as some sort of co-operative project. An image of a card and letter posted on a forum called "equally free" supported this, but the posts are now 404 & threads deleted.
TGL appears to be more legit. than LB. The company behind it - Hollistic Education Foundation has been around at least since 1999 according to companies house records and the the "L Bank" mentioned on their site is not the same as dodgy Roger's "Lawful Bank"
TGL still appears to be a fairly alternative project, so I can see them agreeing to some degree of co-operation with RH in order to extend the reach of their own activities. I suspect that if the "Lawful Bank" is "issuing" cards, they're cards produced by some gullible third party like TGL.

While I'd like to think that, given the FSA's awareness of the "Lawful Bank", they would step in to prevent RH actually carrying out regulated activities without being authorized, regulators aren't always that quick on their feet when it comes to small, unsophisticated set-ups like the "Lawful Bank"

ETA: Take a look at LB's facebook page. They have proudly posted up the FSA's warning about them. <headdesk>
 
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Aulus Agerius said:
ETA: Take a look at LB's facebook page. They have proudly posted up the FSA's warning about them. <headdesk>
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Well, of course they did. Such notices are merely proof that THEY are "afraid" of the Lawful bank, and "know that their fraud is about to collapse".
 
Menard has a lot to answer for, (although his prolonged absence from posting his usual crap everywhere leads me to believe he has run out of marks).

The Lawful Bank scam is utter rubbish but seems to have died a death, as does ACCP, 3CPO, Freeman Valley v99.4 etc.

One of his proteges is, however, being discussed on DIF.
A certain John Harris, (Hi JB :) )...

In this thread is posted this video.

It's an astounding piece of drivel in which the Freeman idea that banks create money out of thin air is contradicted with the notion that The Courts and The Police exist soley to collect revenue for the Banks.

Throw in a bit of Birth Bond nonsense and it's quite obvious why Menard apeals to the gullible / stoned.

ETA: For those not in the know, "On The Edge" is a CT based show on a CT based minority satelitte channel in the UK.
And no, the interviewer is not impartial in any way.
 
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