Ritual abuse convictions in the UK... real, or another hoax?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I bet the men had a lousy defense attorney.

 

[Checkmite]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/teenager-forced-into-a-satanic-sex-cult-904455

Thanks for the links; yes it appears robes and chanting was all part of this one as well, which I was also unfamiliar with until now.

But again we're left with naught but a claim. I think it's interesting that the interviewed woman described being raped by literally dozens of men and didn't mention any women at all save her aunt; and yet only this man (the leader) and three women were ever arrested; there seems to be something missing there.

 

[ddt]

I'm looking for a definition of ritual abuse, and I can't find one that states it is exclusive to satanist groups. It's an odd phrase to use anyway, I think people abuse rituals all the time.

That was tongue in cheek, I hope? It's not that the alleged ritual abusers abuse the ritual, they have a religious ritual in which they abuse children.

People do abuse children in group settings, I can't figure out why it seems incredible to some that perpetrators would also incorporate ideological and ceremonial aspects, especially if they're trying to rationalize their criminality.

Do you have evidence of the first? My impression is that most, if not all, child abusers are lone wolves. They may have an accomplice who helps them perpetrate the crimes - like Marc Dutroux and his wive, or Robert Mikklsons and his husband. But I'm not aware of child abusers who operate in groups.

 

[ddt]

Thanks for the links; yes it appears robes and chanting was all part of this one as well, which I was also unfamiliar with until now.

But again we're left with naught but a claim. I think it's interesting that the interviewed woman described being raped by literally dozens of men and didn't mention any women at all save her aunt; and yet only this man (the leader) and three women were ever arrested; there seems to be something missing there.

Yeah, color me skeptical too. From this Guardian article:

Despite having operated in Kidwelly for years, the cult had seemingly gone unnoticed by the rest of the town.

And in another one:

Geraint Thomas, Kidwelly town council clerk, said: "The first we knew about this matter was when it was publicised in the newspapers.

According to wiki, we're talking here of a town with 3,289 inhabitants. Maybe British (Welsh?) culture is different, but in a Dutch town that small size everyone knows it the next day when you park your car on the wrong side of the street.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

That was tongue in cheek, I hope? It's not that the alleged ritual abusers abuse the ritual, they have a religious ritual in which they abuse children.


Do you have evidence of the first? My impression is that most, if not all, child abusers are lone wolves. They may have an accomplice who helps them perpetrate the crimes - like Marc Dutroux and his wive, or Robert Mikklsons and his husband. But I'm not aware of child abusers who operate in groups.

Pedophiles do collaborate sometimes, but they do so for pragmatic reasons. Every case I know of that involves activity resembling a religious ritual is either one guy who is using theatrics to manipulate kids, or else it is something other than sexual abuse, or else the allegations fall apart when they are examined carefully.

 

[GG Science]

Similarly small cults abusing their own children happens relatively often and is one justifiable reason why people have bad associations with cults. However they don't tend to kidnap outgroup children and molest them.

Why do you consider kidnapping outgroup children a required marker of ritual abuse?

That was tongue in cheek, I hope?

Of course it was, hence the wink.

Perhaps it might be useful to establish a working definition of ritual abuse, as it apparently means different things to different people.

Here is a selection I found through a search. Common themes are repetitive, psychological, physical and/or sexual abuse, and/or torture in family/group settings, in service of a belief system (not necessarily Satanism).

• Ritual Abuse has been defined as psychological, sexual, spiritual and/or physical assault on an unwilling human victim, committed by one or more people whose primary motive is to fulfill a prescribed ritual in order to achieve a specific goal or satisfy the perceived needs of their deity.
  
  
• The term ritual abuse is generally used to mean repeated, extreme, sadistic abuse, especially of children, within a group setting. The group’s ideology is used to justify the abuse, and abuse is used to teach the group’s ideology. The activities are kept secret from society at large, as they violate norms and laws.
  
  
• Repeated physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual assaults combined with a systematic use of symbols, ceremonies, and machinations designed and orchestrated to attain malevolent effects.
  
  
• Abuse that occurs in a context linked to some symbols or group activity that have a religious, magical or supernatural connotation, and where the invocation of these symbols or activities are repeated over time and used to frighten and intimidate the children.
  
  
• Repetitive and systematic sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of children by adults as part of cult or satanic worship.

 

[GG Science]

Do you have evidence of the first? My impression is that most, if not all, child abusers are lone wolves. They may have an accomplice who helps them perpetrate the crimes - like Marc Dutroux and his wive, or Robert Mikklsons and his husband. But I'm not aware of child abusers who operate in groups.

It's commonly called gang rape, and it happens to children as well.

Rochdale police and council 'repeatedly warned' about sex abuse risk in town

NHS team made 83 referrals to borough council from 2004-10 in town harbouring gang of nine finally jailed over child sex ring

 

[GG Science]

I can't imagine why police and prosecutors in the US railroaded hundreds of innocent people for crimes that never really happened, but they did. The Mondale Act affords a partial explanation... the bigger the problem, the more money was available to the agencies charged with addressing the problem.

Hundreds, who are these hundreds? How did you determine that no crimes happened in the cases? If child sexual abuse rates are pandemic, as many studies show, yet only a small percentage are reported to authorities, where is the over-zealousness?

In the UK, I suspect this may be a partial explanation:
victims-and-witnesses/cica

That's really stretching it. The program covers all violent crime and the money goes to victims.

Do you have anything besides speculation about how and why members of various institutions in the UK might be colluding to perpetrate a hoax about ritual abuse?

 

[Strawberry]

If child sexual abuse rates are pandemic, as many studies show, yet only a small percentage are reported to authorities, where is the over-zealousness?

Could you please show us some of these studies?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Hundreds, who are these hundreds?

They were people in communities all across the US, many of whom worked in the daycare industry. Read Satan's Silence by Debbie Nathan and No Crueler Tyrannies by Dorothy Rabinowitz.

How did you determine that no crimes happened in the cases?

I didn't. Investigators and reporters who looked closely at each case made that determination, which is why most of the convictions were eventually overturned.

If child sexual abuse rates are pandemic, as many studies show, yet only a small percentage are reported to authorities, where is the over-zealousness?

I would not dispute that many sex crimes involving children are never reported. That doesn't mean everyone accused of such a crime is guilty, and, in fact, a great many false accusations are made - not by children, mind you, but by adults.

That's really stretching it. The program covers all violent crime and the money goes to victims.

Exactly. It pays to be a victim.

Do you have anything besides speculation about how and why members of various institutions in the UK might be colluding to perpetrate a hoax about ritual abuse?

Nope. I can only guess. If I am wrong, then perhaps I am also wrong in thinking that UFO abductions are an imagined phenomenon. I await some corroborating evidence - something besides testimony about hooded figures reciting chants while performing bizarre rituals involving children, many years ago, in communities where this activity went unnoticed at the time.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Why do you consider kidnapping outgroup children a required marker of ritual abuse?

I didn't. You might need to read what I wrote again.

Do you have any actual reasons to believe that the conviction in this case was safe? So far you just seem to be trying to cast doubt on reasons to doubt the conviction, but you aren't presenting any facts or arguments to support it.

Whether you believe it or not, the people posting in this thread generally aren't the kind of knee-jerk skeptics who doubt things without any proper reason. We're doubting the safety of this conviction because we're familiar with an awful lot of very tragic miscarriages of justice that had many similar features, and this looks like a case of history repeating itself.

 

[Aulus Agerius]

In the UK, I suspect this may be a partial explanation:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/victims-and-witnesses/cica

The idea that the Criminal Injuries Compensation scheme causes a really quite narrow category of childhood sexual assaults to be falsely reported is a bit unlikely. Criminal injuries compensation payments are not particularly generous, and there is no reason why someone wishing to make a false claim should invent one particular kind of scenario. The numbers of complainants involved in these cases also, I think, make the idea that their complaints are intentionally false unlikely.
The existence of a criminal injury compensation scheme is not a good reason to doubt people who claim to have been victims of crime.

Perhaps it might be useful to establish a working definition of ritual abuse, as it apparently means different things to different people.

Here is a selection I found through a search. Common themes are repetitive, psychological, physical and/or sexual abuse, and/or torture in family/group settings, in service of a belief system (not necessarily Satanism).

First, I think you have overestimated the breadth of the criticism in this thread. The suspicion is, I think, of a much narrower category of cases. Cases, like the cornwall case, which involve:
(a) allegations of sexual ritual abuse of child
(b) allegations made many years after event
(c) allegations for which there is no direct physical evidence

In particular, the idea that the abuse is subjectively a ritual seems difficult to believe. There are, as you have noted, instance of subjectively ritual abuse in the UK - that is abuse which the abuser believes to perform some sort of ritual function, like child exorcism. But those abuses occur in communities with a long tradition, for example, of child exorcism.

The suspect cases are different because they claim the existence of previously undiscovered belief system which mandates the abuse.

As I noted above, even in the instant case it is unclear whether this was argued as a case of ritual abuse or rather of abuse dressed up as ritual.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The idea that the Criminal Injuries Compensation scheme causes a really quite narrow category of childhood sexual assaults to be falsely reported is a bit unlikely. Criminal injuries compensation payments are not particularly generous, and there is no reason why someone wishing to make a false claim should invent one particular kind of scenario. The numbers of complainants involved in these cases also, I think, make the idea that their complaints are intentionally false unlikely.
The existence of a criminal injury compensation scheme is not a good reason to doubt people who claim to have been victims of crime.

I will grant this is speculation. It was suggested as a motive by one of the defendants, and I investigated the scheme. Sexual abuse of a child "resulting in permanently disabling mental illness confirmed by psychiatric prognosis" pays 22,000 Euros for "moderate mental illness" and 27,000 for "severe mental illness."

People will do all kinds of things for money, and the sums don't have to be enormous.

I also took note of the judge's sentencing remarks, as reported by the BBC:

Judge Cottle said: "The scars left [on two victims] are so obvious that it would seem extremely unlikely that either of them have any real prospect of recovery."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-20705898

That struck me as a comment made with the "permanently disabling mental illness" language of the compensation scheme in mind. It is routine for a judge to note the harm caused to the victims when passing sentence, but it seems unusual to offer a grim prognosis for the victims' emotional well-being in the future. It might even be regarded as tasteless or insensitive. So why go there? Not without reason, I suspect.

First, I think you have overestimated the breadth of the criticism in this thread. The suspicion is, I think, of a much narrower category of cases. Cases, like the cornwall case, which involve:
(a) allegations of sexual ritual abuse of child
(b) allegations made many years after event
(c) allegations for which there is no direct physical evidence

Your (a) and (c) are universal elements in the ritual abuse cases that have been debunked through careful investigation. But in the US cases of the 1980s, the allegations were not made long after the event. Most cases began with one child making one comment that worried a parent and sparked an investigation, which led to allegations that sexual abuse had occurred in the preceding weeks or months. The kids were interviewed by social workers and attorneys, who asked leading questions and prodded them to "disclose" what had happened. The result was invariably a series of wild stories involving secret rooms, evil clowns, extensive taking of photos and video, and orgies in which urine and feces were spread around. And yet none of this activity was noted at the time it was occurring. No parent ever walked in on one of these orgies, or walked in when the children were away in the "secret room" with the "bad clown."

In particular, the idea that the abuse is subjectively a ritual seems difficult to believe. There are, as you have noted, instance of subjectively ritual abuse in the UK - that is abuse which the abuser believes to perform some sort of ritual function, like child exorcism. But those abuses occur in communities with a long tradition, for example, of child exorcism.

The suspect cases are different because they claim the existence of previously undiscovered belief system which mandates the abuse.

As I noted above, even in the instant case it is unclear whether this was argued as a case of ritual abuse or rather of abuse dressed up as ritual.

I think the allegations in the Cornwall case go well beyond ordinary pedophilia with a ritual facade. We are asked to believe that multiple children were taken to secret locations, where people wearing robes emerged out of the gloom chanting rites, and where a child was bound hand and foot while a priestess ran a dagger with a jeweled handle across her body. These are the classic, unmistakable elements of satanic ritual abuse as it was presented to juries across America in the 1980s.

You can see where I linked an illustration from Don't Make Me Go Back, Mommy, a disturbing children's book that came out of the satanic panic. That's really what they thought was happening - and it's very similar to what the complaining witnesses allege happened in Cornwall. The only difference is that the Cornwall case is "pagan" rather than "satanic," and the authorities really did find a defendant who styles himself as a pagan priest. I bet he wishes now that he had stayed with the Anglican church.

 

[ddt]

First, I think you have overestimated the breadth of the criticism in this thread. The suspicion is, I think, of a much narrower category of cases. Cases, like the cornwall case, which involve:
(a) allegations of sexual ritual abuse of child
(b) allegations made many years after event
(c) allegations for which there is no direct physical evidence

I agree with (a) and (c). As to (b), I think there are two distinct categories.

First, there are the daycare abuse cases. In these case, the allegations are about current abuse of toddlers at daycare or kindergarten facilities. Allegations that come out of thin air - or from some innocuous incident - concerning one child, are widened to all children at the same daycare. Therapists or social workers move in and with suggestive questioning extract fantastic stories from the toddlers.

The prototypical example in the US is the McMartin case in 1983. The Dutch Oude Pekela case from 1987, which I mentioned above, is also in this category. Initially, the culprits there were cast in the image of clowns: the image and fear of Satanism typically belongs to the realm of conservative Christianity, notably absent from (that part) of the Netherlands. However, in 1989 the Dutch evangelical broadcaster EO picked up the story again and made allegations of Satanism. The Jonker couple, both GPs, who had been instrumental in stoking the fire in the initial upheaval, thankfully picked up this aspect and successfully hit the US lecture circuit with talks about Satanism in the Netherlands.

Secondly, there are the cases of "recovered memories". Years later, an alleged victim goes into therapy. The therapist diagnoses the victim with MPD, and "uncovers" memories of childhood sexual abuse coupled with - depending on the beliefs of the therapist - satanic ritual abuse, UFO abductions or yet another CT.

The prototypical example here is the book Michelle Remembers from 1980, which has been thoroughly debunked. The most well-known example from the Netherlands is that of Yolanda from the town Epe, on the edge of the Dutch Bible Belt. She may have actually been abused by her parents; but after therapy, she told on Sonja Barend's talk show - the most popular at the time on Dutch TV - how she had had 6 live births and 12 forced abortions (with hot pokers and chainsaws) before she turned 18. And how her parents organized regular satanic parties where the local doctor, lawyer, notary-public and other officials participated and beat and tortured her. The doctor would treat her wounds with salt and soda. And how her mother once killed one of her babies in front of her eyes, smeared herself with its blood and sang "Glory glory hallelujah"; and made her eat some of its flesh.

The police played a very sordid role in this affair: it turned out that they had asked her to write her diaries, post-facto, and later even then to edit them because they were not gruesome enough. It's inconceivable how prosecutors and judges took this kind of material serious. Her parents were imprisoned for some years, and two others are still locked up in psych ward.

In particular, the idea that the abuse is subjectively a ritual seems difficult to believe. There are, as you have noted, instance of subjectively ritual abuse in the UK - that is abuse which the abuser believes to perform some sort of ritual function, like child exorcism. But those abuses occur in communities with a long tradition, for example, of child exorcism.

The suspect cases are different because they claim the existence of previously undiscovered belief system which mandates the abuse.

As I noted above, even in the instant case it is unclear whether this was argued as a case of ritual abuse or rather of abuse dressed up as ritual.

An interesting twist to the Satanist angle was given by Regina Louf, a.k.a. "Witness X1", who came forward in the Belgian Dutroux case. She claimed an extensive network of Belgian politicians, bankers and industrialist holding perverse sex parties with teenage girls. She alleged they performed Satanic rituals merely for disorienting their victims.

 

[sophia8]

That's really stretching it. The program covers all violent crime and the money goes to victims.

Yes, the UK's Criminal Injuries Compensation scheme does award money to victims of violent crime, including childhood sexual abuse. However, all that victims need to do is to show that the crime has been reported to police, and show medical evidence that they have sustained physical or mental injuries as a result of the crime. No further evidence is required. Full details here.

There's also no time limit set on 'historic' child abuse (unlike all other crimes, which have to be reported with a certain number of years); this makes it disturbingly easy for victims to get compensation for abuse that may never have happened.
GC, you may want to get hold of a copy of Richard Webster's The Secret of Bryn Estyn. It's not about ritual abuse, but is a good examination of a case of "sex abuse panic".

ETA: I see that Charlie Wilkes has also pointed out the 'compensation for mental injury' aspect of such cases. In the Bryn Estyn case, which involved allegations of historic sexual abuse in a childrens' home, the CIC payout to victims was £3,000 each. Not a great deal perhaps to some people, but a fortune to young men who were homeless and umemployed.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I have spent some time today looking at old videos and articles about ritual abuse in the US.

Here's an overview by Debbie Nathan, published in 1990:

http://ncrj.org/resources/info/the-ritual-sex-abuse-hoax/

I watched Geraldo Rivera's 1988 TV program, Exposing Satan's Underground, which was one of several productions that did incalculable harm by promoting dangerous falsehoods. It's interesting to see how Rivera frames the premise of a large satanic subculture in American society. He presents a video collage that blends three distinct types of people:

- Criminals who have embraced the trappings of satanism as expressed in pop culture, but are not part of any organization or network.

- People who have weird beliefs and practices related to satanism, but aren't doing anything illegal.

- People who claim to have been part of a satanic network that sacrifices babies and commits other abominations, but can offer no evidence to support these claims.

The program is on Youtube in nine segments, starting here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgV9K-1_mV8

In 1995, Rivera realized he had bought into a hoax, and he did something commendable by apologizing:

"I want to announce publicly that as a firm believer of the 'Believe The Children' movement of the 1980's, that started with the McMartin trials in CA, but NOW I am convinced that I was terribly wrong... and many innocent people were convicted and went to prison as a result....AND I am equally positive [that the] 'Repressed Memory Therapy Movement' is also a bunch of CRAP..."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/geraldo.htm

Also of interest is a Larry King segment on Youtube, where he talks to a pair os sisters who "recovered" memories of abuse by their mother and sued her. This program, which also features the opinions of a skeptic, is in three segments. Here are the links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhJC_wq7kxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oauqOedMCRg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlEYyE5_6tw

 

[Checkmite]

Yes, the UK's Criminal Injuries Compensation scheme does award money to victims of violent crime, including childhood sexual abuse. However, all that victims need to do is to show that the crime has been reported to police, and show medical evidence that they have sustained physical or mental injuries as a result of the crime. No further evidence is required. Full details here.

There's also no time limit set on 'historic' child abuse (unlike all other crimes, which have to be reported with a certain number of years); this makes it disturbingly easy for victims to get compensation for abuse that may never have happened.
GC, you may want to get hold of a copy of Richard Webster's The Secret of Bryn Estyn. It's not about ritual abuse, but is a good examination of a case of "sex abuse panic".

ETA: I see that Charlie Wilkes has also pointed out the 'compensation for mental injury' aspect of such cases. In the Bryn Estyn case, which involved allegations of historic sexual abuse in a childrens' home, the CIC payout to victims was £3,000 each. Not a great deal perhaps to some people, but a fortune to young men who were homeless and umemployed.

While it does seem easy for someone to fraudulently claim to have been abused many years ago and gain a small amount of money this way in the UK, I am content with no time limit on sexual abuse cases and would oppose any movement to change this. Neither do I begrudge compensation to abuse victims, even if it's the case that some frauds may take advantage of the system.

As it stands I'm not entirely convinced that the motivation behind the claims being dealt with here is financial, assuming they're fraudulent.

 

[Dismember]

memories from infancy

Also of interest is a Larry King segment on Youtube, where he talks to a pair os sisters who "recovered" memories of abuse by their mother and sued her. This program, which also features the opinions of a skeptic, is in three segments. Here are the links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhJC_wq7kxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oauqOedMCRg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlEYyE5_6tw

I've just started watching the first video, and around 1:40 the older sister Bonnie says the abuse started when she was an infant. The younger sister Patti says the same thing around 2:20. Neither of them know when the abuse stopped because they haven't "recovered" those memories yet.

Having done a quick search, I'm not really finding a consensus on this but it's hard for me to take seriously the idea that these women have a conscious recall of memories from infancy, especially memories clear enough to file a civil suit over.

Am I mistaken? Is it plausible that they are really remembering things that happened from infancy?

 

[Orphia Nay]

As it stands I'm not entirely convinced that the motivation behind the claims being dealt with here is financial, assuming they're fraudulent.

Seconded.

Am I mistaken? Is it plausible that they are really remembering things that happened from infancy?

I haven't watched the clips, but I doubt that very much.

At age 10 (as in one case in Cornwall, IIRC) I can believe.

 

[Dismember]

I haven't watched the clips, but I doubt that very much.

At age 10 (as in one case in Cornwall, IIRC) I can believe.

I concur - thanks for your input, Orphia.

Here's another interesting accusation of ritual abuse, validated by none other than Valerie Sinason.

To put it mildly, I find Valerie Sinason's claims highly suspect. I don't understand how she remains licensed.

Also, I hope this isn't viewed as a derail but i think it's relevant to the topic of false memories and confabulation. This article (really a video segment) discusses false memories that occur naturally as a result of critical illness. In my opinion, this is an amazing phenomena and perhaps yet another nail in the "repressed memory" coffin because it looks like the very same phenomena, just with a different origin.

Often patients come out of the ICU with horrifying memories (of being tortured, raped, assaulted, or imprisoned) and don’t know what happened to them. Not only are the patients debilitated by the physical illness, they are traumatized by the false memories resulting from delirium.