Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Antifa doxxing is bad, because neo-confederates and neo-nazis sometimes lose their jobs.

Doxxing so that the same nazis can show up with a gun to murder a 9 year old boy because the mother got a disorderly conduct charge at a protest, that's a-ok.
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I sense you are on the verge of a breakthrough. Hang in there, growth can be a painful experience.
 
Distracted1 said:
I sense you are on the verge of a breakthrough. Hang in there, growth can be a painful experience.
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I suppose it's some consolation that posting public mugshots from his home is about the only "journalism" that Andy Ngo can do these days, since he'd probably be murdered on sight if he ever went anywhere near these protests.

There's a real "who shaves the barber" conundrum here. Who's gonna post the mugshot of whoever beats Ngo to death?
 
Suddenly said:
The insurance companies won't refuse to insure individual cops for the exact same reason. The Union will negotiate the contracts and this all gets priced in and will eventually through some mechanism come out of our pockets anyway as part of police compensation. At best this transfers some costs to private donors.

Plus, now you have the for profit insurers enthusiastically joining the police in lobbying for ways to make it harder to redress harm. Want to see QI expanded and non-federal remedies further hollowed out? Have the insurance industry have a ton of skin in the game.
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I don't know if that's a valid assumption. Medical Malpractice isn't collectively bargained, and varies based on the risk related to the individual doctor. It's not insurance for the hospital as a whole (they usually have umbrella protections too), but is coverage for the specific doctor.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Doxxing is bad. No additional qualifiers needed.
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Do you really think so?

Recently "Vic Mackey" was doxxed by antifascists. He's the head of a podcast called "Bowl Patrol", named after the bowl haircut of convicted multiple murderer Dylan Roof, who shot defenseless black people at church in the name of white supremacy. They lionize people like Roof and others as "saints".

Mackey has bragged about vandalizing a synagogue under his alias and has encouraged acts of racial violence. Since being doxxed, his firearms were confiscated under an emergency order in California. None of this is possible without doxxing by antifascists. The state authorities admit as much in their filings. Without doxxing by amateur antifa sleuths, none of this would have happened to "Vic".

Was doxxing this terrorist propagandist bad, without qualifiers?

Andrew Casarez of Orangevale, California, btw.

https://accollective.noblogs.org/post/2020/07/07/vic-mackey-of-the-bowl-patrol-identified-as-andrew-casarez-of-orangevale/
 
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I'm not going to lose a single second of sleep if the internet outs the fact that a cop is a Nazi or a KKK member for instance, lest not in the abstract.

However I don't exactly have a huge amount of trust in the internet's ability to always get this right.

I'm still reminded of the incident where the guy ran down the protestors in Charlottesville. The internet sleuths took it upon themselves to track him down via his license plate.

Except the guy they had sold the car to a dealer almost a year prior to (hey information on the internet isn't always real time up to date) the incident and a guy who's only crime was having owned a Dodge Charger over a year ago had to put under police protection.

See also Reddit almost getting some people killed for IDing the wrong Boston Marathon Bombers.

So it's not a moral question to me, just one of reliability I guess you'd say.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Do you really think so?

Recently "Vic Mackey" was doxxed by antifascists. He's the head of a podcast called "Bowl Patrol", named after the bowl haircut of convicted multiple murderer Dylan Roof, who shot defenseless black people at church in the name of white supremacy. They lionize people like Roof and others as "saints".

Mackey has bragged about vandalizing a synagogue under his alias and has encouraged acts of racial violence. Since being doxxed, his firearms were confiscated under an emergency order in California. None of this is possible without doxxing by antifascists. The state authorities admit as much in their filings. Without doxxing by amateur antifa sleuths, none of this would have happened to "Vic".

Was doxxing this terrorist propagandist bad, without qualifiers?

Andrew Casarez of Orangevale, California, btw.

https://accollective.noblogs.org/post/2020/07/07/vic-mackey-of-the-bowl-patrol-identified-as-andrew-casarez-of-orangevale/
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I'm fine with doxxing lawbreakers. Which is what Ngo is doing.
 
Brainster said:
I'm fine with doxxing lawbreakers. Which is what Ngo is doing.
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The problem is, sometimes it works to a good end and sometimes it doesn't. Doxxing may give authorities a valid lead, but sometimes innocents end up on the death-threats/assault end of the stick. I'd rather not trust too many randoms to be in charge of that.

eta: ninja'd
 
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Emily's Cat said:
I don't know if that's a valid assumption. Medical Malpractice isn't collectively bargained, and varies based on the risk related to the individual doctor. It's not insurance for the hospital as a whole (they usually have umbrella protections too), but is coverage for the specific doctor.
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The doctors do not have a union at all, much less one that is dedicated to making sure that doctors do not suffer consequences for their bad acts.
 
Thermal said:
The problem is, sometimes it works to a good end and sometimes it doesn't. Doxxing may give authorities a valid lead, but sometimes innocents end up on the death-threats/assault end of the stick. I'd rather not trust too many randoms to be in charge of that.

eta: ninja'd
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Ngo isn't providing leads and he isn't identifying the wrong people. He is simply posting on his twitter account the names and mug shots of the people arrested in the Portland riots. Public information in other words.
 
Brainster said:
Ngo isn't providing leads and he isn't identifying the wrong people. He is simply posting on his twitter account the names and mug shots of the people arrested in the Portland riots. Public information in other words.
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Andy has a bad reputation when it comes to publishing lists of "bad guys." I highly recommend that you do more research on him before assuming anything approaching good intentions on his part.
 
I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Do you really think so?
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Yes.

The appropriate thing to do if the person in question is a threat or has engaged in criminal activity is to provide the contact information to the proper authorities. Doxxing ends up getting used to threaten, harass, and endanger people. Even if the alleged transgression is real, it's not the role of vigilante citizens to take the law into their own hands.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Yes.

The appropriate thing to do if the person in question is a threat or has engaged in criminal activity is to provide the contact information to the proper authorities. Doxxing ends up getting used to threaten, harass, and endanger people. Even if the alleged transgression is real, it's not the role of vigilante citizens to take the law into their own hands.
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There would be no contact information to hand over without antifa types going through the process of doxxing him. Usually it's a distributed operation, where various people collect small bits of information and share, putting them together to discover the ID.

There would be no non-public way to discover his real information, thus no way to privately give it over to the police. Would it have been better had Vic never been ID'd?

What if Vic had done all these things, but not the criminal vandalism? Would you oppose the outing of an overt, but 100% lawful, white nationalist that advocates violence?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
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Agreed. Even if it's publicly available information, there's a nuance in there where aggregating and publishing that information can be a fairly clear threat.

IIRC a whole back (maybe early 2016?) there was a government official in a district who published the names and addresses of everyone in his district who had donated campaign funds to Trump. He published it with some comment about "Here are all the people who helped get Trump elected" or something similar. And yes, technically the donation information is public information. But having an official publish it about people in his own district, who he is supposed to be representing, and calling out those who voted for the other party candidate... that left a terribly bad taste in my mouth.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
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Ignoring the hyperbole of your example, it seems disingenuous to short change the abilities of these people to find victims. Sorry, but if the limiting factor of a guy driving hours in his car, bringing a gun to confront/kill someone in their home is an Andy Ngo post of the publicly available information, that post is not the issue. If these people can find your home address, where you work and form groups to harass you, they can damn well find the info that he does.

"Make it harder for them" should not but something that they can overcome by using google for 5 minutes more.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
There would be no contact information to hand over without antifa types going through the process of doxxing him. Usually it's a distributed operation, where various people collect small bits of information and share, putting them together to discover the ID.

There would be no non-public way to discover his real information, thus no way to privately give it over to the police. Would it have been better had Vic never been ID'd?

What if Vic had done all these things, but not the criminal vandalism? Would you oppose the outing of an overt, but 100% lawful, white nationalist that advocates violence?
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I'm not going to budge on this. If people want to investigate and share among a small group of people in order to identify someone, and then hand that information over to the authorities, I'm not going to complain. But publishing it to the entire world on the internet is something that I 100% do not approve of, no matter the situation.

I would've thought this was pretty clear by now: I have no tolerance for vigilantism.
 
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