Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Shadowdweller]

The way I see it, here's a solution to the rioting open to the police.

1. The current police leadership has to go. They have completely shot their credibility with the protesters. This includes various mid-level officers. Out with them.

2. The new leadership calls a meeting with the various protester organisations, community leaders, someone with Antifa-cred etc.

3. They present a contract where police take responsibility for failing to protect the demonstrators' first amendment rights and for brutality against the protesters. They pledge to purge the force of officers aligned with the extreme right and officers who have been shown to be guilty of brutality. They also promise to protect the protesters from violent from right wing agitators and to arrest the right wing agitators that have outstanding warrants. Further, they will keep the right wingers away from the protesters.

4. The protesters pledge to do their civic duty when it comes to looters, reporting them to the police and not to interfere when they are apprehended. Further, no more avoidable property damage. They also pledge not to engage right wingers, except in self-defense, but instead to report their presence to the police so that they can be escorted away.

The result of all parties upholding such pledges would be peaceful protests protected against fascists by the police, as well as a police force purged of unsavory elements.

ETA: I realize this isn't going to happen, as it assumes that the police is inherently a force for good with "a few bad apples", which they have shown themselves not to be.

Rank stupidity on multiple levels. For one thing, the Anarchist groups that have tried to infliltrate every single major left-wing protest here in Portland (including a fair few that had nothing to do with policing) for at least the last 5 years - the ones the right-wing noise machine are calling Antifa; and that several posters here defend unquestioningly are not and have never been interested in actual police reform. They are ideologically opposed to the concept of policing. "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

 

[cullennz]

As an outsider the need for some people to keep proclaiming all this is just peaceful protesting and there are no rioting looting scum in amongst them is becoming a bit of a joke.

 

[uke2se]

Rank stupidity on multiple levels. For one thing, the Anarchist groups that have tried to infliltrate every single major left-wing protest here in Portland (including a fair few that had nothing to do with policing) for at least the last 5 years - the ones the right-wing noise machine are calling Antifa; and that the likes of you and Cavemonster defend unquestioningly are not and have never been interested in actual police reform. They are ideologically opposed to the concept of policing. "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

Well then, good luck fighting the windmills.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I think the protests and the social attention on the issue have served the purpose of raising awareness and making it an issue that clearly needs to be addressed.

I don't think that riots have helped at all. And I think that the longer the rioting continues, the less likely we are to be able to give the issue of racial inequity in the justice system the attention that it needs.

Then why aren't "they" doing it now?

Not a simple question. Reform efforts certainly didn't begin with the protests by any stretch of the imagination. Here in Portland, for example, there have been decades of complaints. The DoJ back in 2012 (before Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, etc) forced the Portland Police Bureau to change its use of force guidelines to address problems. One of our city commissioners, Jo-Ann Hardesty, ran heavily on a police-reform platform back in 2018(?). And yet a report last year found major disparities in stops, arrests, and sentencing along racial/ethnic lines. (Leaving alone decades of deaths, brutality, racism, activism, etc).

There are several issues in play as far as I can tell:
* The etiology of racial disparities isn't well understood; and is significantly multivariate. I mean, it's easy to just write it all off as "racism"; but the specific factors contributing to and composing that aren't all well established.

* Some of the factors almost certainly include things like poverty rates that cannot just be easily solved or waved away - at least until one can convince the US population that equalizing wages, property, etc is a good thing. Or something similarly difficult

* There are wide variety of organizations and institutions that are actively opposed to reform. Sometimes because they are opposed to or unwilling to acknowledge anything that makes police look bad politically (police unions like the PPA, Blue Lives Matter); sometimes because they favor the status quo simply because of tradition and worry that alternatives might break things; some because they are politically opposed to the necessary reforms ("public funding of college tuition is Communism!"); sometimes because the groups calling for police reform are demonized by political opportunists; and sometimes, yes, because there are organizations that directly or indirectly want racial inequality.

* Reforms demanded by various groups and individuals to combat the problem are often plagued by inefficacy, redundancy, or a simple lack of public awareness. Where they even have consistent support (c.f. "Affirmative action is reverse racism!") amongst the voting population.

* Discrimination and racial or other disparities often permeate power structures well beyond the police itself. Hardesty was the first African American woman on the Portland city council for example - in Portland's nearly two hundred years.

* At its core, policing in this US frequently involves some sort of violent, restrictive, and/or punitive intervention. Until someone comes up with a good - and publicly accepted - alternative for that, problems are likely to continue regardless of racial disparity.

 

[uke2se]

Not a simple question. Reform efforts certainly didn't begin with the protests by any stretch of the imagination. Here in Portland, for example, there have been decades of complaints. The DoJ back in 2012 (before Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, etc) forced the Portland Police Bureau to change its use of force guidelines to address problems. One of our city commissioners, Jo-Ann Hardesty, ran heavily on a police-reform platform back in 2018(?). And yet a report last year found major disparities in stops, arrests, and sentencing along racial/ethnic lines. (Leaving alone decades of deaths, brutality, racism, activism, etc).

There are several issues in play as far as I can tell:
* The etiology of racial disparities isn't well understood; and is significantly multivariate. I mean, it's easy to just write it all off as "racism"; but the specific factors contributing to and composing that aren't all well established.

* Some of the factors almost certainly include things like poverty rates that cannot just be easily solved or waved away - at least until one can convince the US population that equalizing wages, property, etc is a good thing. Or something similarly difficult

* There are wide variety of organizations and institutions that are actively opposed to reform. Sometimes because they are opposed to or unwilling to acknowledge anything that makes police look bad politically (police unions like the PPA, Blue Lives Matter); sometimes because they favor the status quo simply because of tradition and worry that alternatives might break things; some because they are politically opposed to the necessary reforms ("public funding of college tuition is Communism!"); sometimes because the groups calling for police reform are demonized by political opportunists; and sometimes, yes, because there are organizations that directly or indirectly want racial inequality.

* Reforms demanded by various groups and individuals to combat the problem are often plagued by inefficacy, redundancy, or a simple lack of public awareness. Where they even have consistent support (c.f. "Affirmative action is reverse racism!") amongst the voting population.

* Discrimination and racial or other disparities often permeate power structures well beyond the police itself. Hardesty was the first African American woman on the Portland city council for example - in Portland's nearly two hundred years.

* At its core, policing in this US frequently involves some sort of violent, restrictive, and/or punitive intervention. Until someone comes up with a good - and publicly accepted - alternative for that, problems are likely to continue regardless of racial disparity.

So what is your answer to why the protests should stop? Nothing has happened despite there being multiple groups working for change. People (well, at least the oppressed people) are fed up. They demand change now. They aren't going to wait until the etiology of racial disparities are better understood.

 

[Shadowdweller]

So what is your answer to why the protests should stop? Nothing has happened despite there being multiple groups working for change. People (well, at least the oppressed people) are fed up. They demand change now. They aren't going to wait until the etiology of racial disparities are better understood.

Have I ever said that I think the protests should stop?

I think no such thing. However, I also don't believe that misrepresentation of events or issues, violence, arson, looting, or antidemocratic demands are going to result in positive outcomes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

ETA: Maybe he'll slip and make a reference to "marshal law," which is a good thing, right?

First series was ok.

 

[Minoosh]

@ScottAdamsSays

I wonder if BLM knows Antifa was allied with Hitler and helped him come to power. It feels as if that would be a source of tension, given BLM's focus on history. Does Antifa owe reparations to anyone who lost a family member or property to Nazi Germany?

From jacobinmag.com: The Lost History of Antifa

These groups, oftentimes launched from the aforementioned housing estates, were generally called “Antifaschistische Ausschüsse,” “Antifaschistische Kommittees,” or the now famous “Antifaschistische Aktion” – “Antifa” for short. They drew on the slogans and orientation of the prewar united front strategy, adopting the word “Antifa” from a last-ditch attempt to establish a cross-party alliance between Communist and Social Democratic workers in 1932. The alliance’s iconic logo, devised by Association of Revolutionary Visual Artists members Max Keilson and Max Gebhard, has been since become one of the Left’s most well-known symbols.

WTAF: Adams is too smart to fall for this crap. I can only guess he is lying because he knows the info will circulate among Trump supporters. The campaign is going to do more and more of this, but is firing up the base going to help too much? This is another story where the debunking takes up attention on the left while the damage has already been done.

Antifa does have a history among Communists and Social Democrats, having tried to form a coalition in 1932. They were ALWAYS anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. If he said it had a Communist history, that would have been marginally true.

Given that a fair percentage of Trump supporters have sympathies for Nazis, I wonder if this lie is going to hurt them all that much.

I don't think Adams can libel a group - I don't know how that works - but unfortunately I can't think of a response that can't be used to somehow help Trump. If foreign governments actually are involved in ongoing propaganda and provocation, maybe they could spread such rumors anonymously. Same story, though: Very few Trump supporters would even care, just like they won't care that China's alleged interference also seems to benefit Trump, not Biden. Or maybe people will respond to his tweet - that's one way to MAYBE get through to Trump voters how badly they are being manipulated. "I wonder if Scott Adams know he's full of ****. Amazing he thinks people will fall for it." If he tweeted it I suppose it could be reported, but I don't know if that's a tweet. Anyway, I think insulting Trump supporters is not the way to go at this point. Compliment their intelligence: "Trump fans are smart enough to look this up." Because insults just slam down the discourse, such as is, IMO.

ETA to Swoop, I'm interested in good TV internationally, anything good on Netflix? Off topic, sorry, don't answer if it's too much of a derail.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Correction: Scott Adams used to be too smart to fall for this crap.

But he has thrown in his lot with Trump, and now he can only double down because the alternative (admit he was wrong) is too terrible to contemplate.

 

[Minoosh]

I thought that was the feds. If so, it seems of a piece with their practice of not recording interviews. It's bad practice in this day and age.

Why is it bad practice? Some of the time it would be, but if the desire to dictate a narrative comes directly from the top, the less documentation the better, right? I mean, eventually they could get sued for, say, mishandling evidence in a criminal investigation. Longterm, it's bad practice. Short term, it's all aimed at supporting Trump. Barr IMO hinted quite broadly that he doesn't care about being disbarred anymore; he's all-in with Trump, defending him from personal lawsuits that have nothing to do with his presidential duties. He said everything's political, and he's at the end of his career, so he might as well honor his own politics by defending Trump against all comers. I may be misreading him, but I felt like it was kind of an honorable thing to say.

 

[caveman1917]

Fascinating.

FOUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS in parts of Oregon ravaged by wildfires — propelled by high winds across parched land during hot, dry weather in a changing climate — are pleading with the public to stop calling 911 to pass on unfounded rumors that antifascist political activists have intentionally set the blazes.

{...}

 

[caveman1917]

From another source, the U.S.Justice Dept. is looking for those who "foment the riots". Follow the money. Koche? Russians? Chinese? ...Bloomburg and yellow journalism?

Oh that one's easy. Those who "forment the riots" are the police, and following the money leads to the US government.

 

[autumn1971]

Okay, then. I really don't know what your point was intended to be. Can you expand on it and explain it?

Okay let me know where I lose people.

- If the cops stop murdering black people in the streets, the rioters will stop rioting.

- If the rioters stop rioting, the police will continue to murder black people in the streets.

One of these things is a reaction to the other. It's not a difficult concept.

Here, JoeMorgue said it better than I did.

Many people have the causality ass-backwards.

Republicans do it on purpose

 

[uke2se]

Here, JoeMorgue said it better than I did.

Many people have the causality ass-backwards.

Republicans do it on purpose

It's very similar to the old "Antifa and the Nazis are equally bad" chestnut. One of them is a reaction to the other.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why is it bad practice?
...
Longterm, it's bad practice.

Okay, then, so you already know. Then why did you ask?

Short term, it's all aimed at supporting Trump.

Yeah, no. This didn't start with Trump. It's got basically nothing to do with Trump. It's not like the Feds were recording things and then stopped after Trump came into office.

 

[shuttlt]

Yeah, no. This didn't start with Trump. It's got basically nothing to do with Trump. It's not like the Feds were recording things and then stopped after Trump came into office.

Just ask General Flynn.

 

[autumn1971]

Rank stupidity on multiple levels. For one thing, the Anarchist groups that have tried to infliltrate every single major left-wing protest here in Portland (including a fair few that had nothing to do with policing) for at least the last 5 years - the ones the right-wing noise machine are calling Antifa; and that several posters here defend unquestioningly are not and have never been interested in actual police reform. They are ideologically opposed to the concept of policing. "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

Well, that’s some idiotic ********

 

[JoeMorgue]

Correction: Scott Adams used to be too smart to fall for this crap.

But he has thrown in his lot with Trump, and now he can only double down because the alternative (admit he was wrong) is too terrible to contemplate.

He's like the Anti-Nate Silver at this point, trying to coast forever on one lucky guess instead of Nate's never being able to live down one prediction that wasn't even really wrong within the broader context.

I was a fan of Scott Adams for the longest time I'll admit. He look into what was wrong with American Corporate Culture in the Dilbert strips and expanded in his books had a lot of legit insightful brilliance in them. But there was always a swarmy, "I sooooo want to be the smartest person in the room" attitude floating just below the surface and I think when he "correctly predicted" a Trump victory he jumped at it as a chance to buy into his own personal mythology.

Ironically his book "How to Win Bigly" is a book that I sort of halfway recommend as the best way to understand the argumentative tactics and mentality of Trump supporters, even though the book will make you keep refreshing your Kindle to see if Amazon has added a "Punch the author" option anywhere on it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's very similar to the old "Antifa and the Nazis are equally bad" chestnut. One of them is a reaction to the other.

It's become the standard tactic. "If unequal things aren't treated equally, it's a form of unfairness and I will whine about it."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Alan Swinney has been openly bragging about his violent action during the last proud boy rally in Portland. Here he is sharing a video of his crimes and promising that Sep 26 will be worse.

https://twitter.com/betacuck4lyfe/status/1305017425474199554?s=09

The choice by the police not to arrest Swinney and others like him speak volumes. The cops endorse this street violence.

It's likely that the 26th rally will be extremely violent and that more will be killed in the streets, either by the fascists or by antifascist counter-protesters. Remember that the police chose for this to happen.