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Right, Left and coddling

The one they're just plain right about is that lefties' habit, in many cases more like obsession, with spouting hate-speech instead of actually making their case does indeed drive people away from the left.


Obvious and important questions: "who", and "where"? Who are the people being driven away from the left? Where are they being driven to?

Because what I infer from your statement, in the context of the article, is that you believe that being unfairly labelled a racist somehow drives people who would otherwise consider themselves left-leaning toward the right side of the political spectrum.

If that's the case, it's pure nonsense. It assumes the person being labelled is utterly incapable of distinguishing the individual from the group, an implied statement about their intellect that I'm sure would not be appreciated.

In the end, your comment is too broad-brushed to offer much insight, and it's a regurgitation of well-worn opinions. It suffers from the very thing you decry.
 
Obvious and important questions: "who", and "where"? Who are the people being driven away from the left? Where are they being driven to?
These are the questions that would be expected from someone who didn't finish reading my post. I gave an example, and the example was myself.

It assumes the person being labelled is utterly incapable of distinguishing the individual from the group
That's so wrong it seems to be what drives the rest of what you're saying here, so I bumped it up in the order. The left-wing hate-speech doesn't come from just a few individuals. Whenever I listened to or read lefties for years, I was inundated in SJWism before it got that name. It's so much of the left that any exceptions, who will actually present a rational case rationally, are so few & far between that they're hard to find and I didn't even have any direct evidence available that they existed at all. This forum was one of the first two places where I finally discovered that there even are any sound arguments at all for anything on the left, and even here, the next post I have in mind to respond to in another thread is yet another accusation of "obvious" bigotry in stuff someone said that wasn't even on the subject that the allegedly bigotry would be about.

Because what I infer from your statement, in the context of the article, is that you believe that being unfairly labelled a racist...
...among other things...
...somehow drives people who would otherwise consider themselves left-leaning toward the right side of the political spectrum.
Not necessarily those "who would otherwise consider themselves left-leaning", but at least those who would listen and consider a reasonable argument if they could find one, and then could be convinced by that, like me.

On the "somehow" part, I figure that at least two distinct kinds of mechanisms are at work, although I also must point out that not knowing how something happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen so it doesn't counter observations that it happens; it just means we don't know how.

Anyway, first, there's apparently a subconscious psychological component. Nobody responds positively to a constantly overflooded stream of false accusations. There are few or no other methods more efficient at setting people against you than to attack them, and, of all possible verbal forms of attack, false accusations might be the worst, and even worse than some physical types. It self-labels the accuser as The Enemy and obviously not worth dealing with in any other mode but that.

Second, that kind of behavior walks right into a couple of apparent principles of rational thinking that would seem to go against whatever such people are arguing for, even while ignoring or trying to ignore the emotional aspect of the situation. One is that, since the accusations are clearly lies and that's practically all they ever do, that means most of what they say is lies, which categorizes the accusers as dishonest sources, so even if they ever occasionally say something else, that's probably just more lies too, because it comes from known perennial liars. And the other, and more important, one is that most people generally would present their best argument for whatever they're arguing for, not the most transparently hopelessly invalid, so if all they offer is inane blithering nonsense, then they must not have any available arguments that are any good, because if they did then they'd use those instead.

Of course, neither of these apparent principles is completely reliable; it's possible for a habitual/compulsive liar to say things that aren't lies, especially on other subjects if only certain subjects trigger their lying, (and it might even be possible that some of the false accusations are honest mistakes rather than lies), and it's also possible for people to insist on using their own worst arguments instead of good ones even if the latter really do exist and are available to them. But these general rules seem sound enough to use until exceptions are observed (in this case, sound logical fact-based arguments for lefty positions, which are mysteriously going unused by most lefties). And if none are observed year after year, the conclusion starts to look relatively sound. (And even when exceptions are found, it still remains pretty bizarre and baffling; why do they still keep going back to the utter crap they spout, when the other stuff they could use instead is so much better? It just doesn't make sense.)
 
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Know your authors. Alexander has been a well-spoken source for condescending-liberals-you're-your-worst-enemy rhetoric through several election cycles. He's also a past master of the Playing The Race Card card, whereunder if you get there early enough or often enough and say "Eeew, you can't do that, you're playing the race card!", you can excuse all sorts of conservative excesses because you called it first.

He's not a concern troll. He's a hard line Claremont Institute conservative. Taking advice from him on how to be a better liberal is like taking advice from a wolf on how to be a better sheep. This ploy worked somewhat in '16 - the right wing media went ape**** because Hillary called all of you god-fearing conservatives a bunch of "deplorables". She didn't, of course. She called the deplorables deplorable. And then we had Charlottesville, but by then it was too late - the You Gotta Respect The Opinions of Morons brigade had garnered enough support.

I'm assuming that this one was a follow-up to NYT editor Bari Weiss' equally idiotic blathering about the "Intellectual Dark Web", those poor academics, debaters, and whatever Dave Rubin is supposed to be these days. Y'know, the guys that are so oppressed that they're getting wingnut welfare, filling auditoriums, and posing in dark shrubbery. I assume that this editorial appeared shortly after everyone told her how idiotic her entire article was.

And again, while I can understand why people in prisons, black folks in the 1950s, and others who face actual hardships may be attracted by the Nation of Islam's black supremacism, I've had plenty of knuckleheads call me one of the worst racists on this board, and there's no way I'm responding by joining up with Farrakhan, or those Black Israelites, or any of that nonsense.

I'm amused that so many white conservatives eagerly paint themselves as having the maturity of a toddler in mid-tantrum. I don't actually buy it for a moment, but it's almost as much fun as those writeups about people who voted for the petty, bigoted conman for president, and are now being hurt by his pettiness, bigotry, and conning.
 
The democrats, for example, are just as much in favor of economic regulation as they've ever been. And Obamacare has put a giant chunk of the US economy under far more government control than than that sector has ever been under before.

Regulation and government control are two completely different things. If you don’t understand the difference then it’s no wonder you are so out of step with where the economic policies of the two parties lay on the political spectrum.
 
Regulation and government control are two completely different things. If you don’t understand the difference then it’s no wonder you are so out of step with where the economic policies of the two parties lay on the political spectrum.

Regulation is not the only form of control, nor is it total control, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not still a form of control. It absolutely is. And explicitly and intentionally so.
 
Regulation is not the only form of control, nor is it total control, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not still a form of control. It absolutely is. And explicitly and intentionally so.

How cute, you are trying to play word games.

Fine, then let’s try using your terminology instead. Using your terminology all mainstream economics says that all economies should be “government controlled” because all braches of mainstream free market economics recognise the need for regulation. This doesn’t really make sense though does it. The problem with your terminology is that it doesn’t distinguish mainstream free market economics from command economies where governments truly do control the economy.

For the record the Democratic party is firmly in the realm of mainstream free market economics and skews towards limiting intervention as much as practical.
 
How cute, you are trying to play word games.

Fine, then let’s try using your terminology instead. Using your terminology all mainstream economics says that all economies should be “government controlled” because all braches of mainstream free market economics recognise the need for regulation. This doesn’t really make sense though does it. The problem with your terminology is that it doesn’t distinguish mainstream free market economics from command economies where governments truly do control the economy.

For the record the Democratic party is firmly in the realm of mainstream free market economics and skews towards limiting intervention as much as practical.

The core of economics is descriptive, not normative. It outlines the effects of regulation. It doesn't make a case that those effects are valuable.
 
The core of economics is descriptive, not normative. It outlines the effects of regulation. It doesn't make a case that those effects are valuable.
Modern economics doesn't need to make a case that market efficiency is valuable, you accept that when you accept the value of free markets to begin with. If economic efficiency is not a goal then there is no need to bother with free markets to begin with.
 
Being from the other side doesn't invalidate their claims. Sometimes outsiders or opponents can even be more accurate than self-description. And in this case, one of the two points that were quoted here is right, and the other is sort of both right and wrong but more wrong than right.

The one they're just plain right about is that lefties' habit, in many cases more like obsession, with spouting hate-speech instead of actually making their case does indeed drive people away from the left. What else could really expected to happen if there were a group that consistently threw false accusations at you of one of the most heinous things someone could think/do/be?... and then only responded to every attempt to reason with them by just cranking it up some more? Not change yourself to make their accusations true, of course, but at least oppose them and not take them seriously. Nobody is ever going to side with their accusers or even stay neutral. (This got particularly hilarious during & shortly after the Obama-Clinton contest, when a group that was normally unified in calling everybody else racist & sexist at all times over everything split into, according to them, the racists versus the sexists, and they all suddenly had to deal with being called either racist alone or sexist alone for just a few months, and were shocked & horrified to discover that their own side could do such a thing and how much more vicious it was than anything the right had ever thrown at them... but apparently the lesson didn't stick.)

And on top of that is the fact that even when there's a serious case for the left that could be presented and might convince people, spouting SJWism instead means not presenting that argument, which means letting the other side's argument stand unopposed. For example, for years and years, I kept hearing Republicans/conservatives saying that higher taxes would decrease revenues and lower taxes would increase them, complete with a theory of how & why that would work that way, but any source actually stating the opposite was nowhere to be found. I'd listen to the left, but they never touched it; they were too busy with "hate the rich just for having money, hate businesses for doing business, and your opinion of the tax rate means you're a homophobe or something". Guess what impression that creates: even someone who studiously ignores the foaming-at-the-mouth attackery still sees that the Republican/conservative claim about a real-world fact has gone unopposed, which makes it appear to be generally accepted as fact by both sides. After years of this, I finally found some lefties who actually do make the counter-claim about taxes & the economy, so now it's clear that that is not a generally accepted fact... but it shouldn't have been so obscure and well-hidden from the outside behind such a wall of rabid shrieking berserkery.

Where they do go wrong, though, is in predicting that that will get Trump re-elected. It contributes, but the bigger factor in Trump having a chance of getting re-elected is that the people in control of the Democrat party are still desperately struggling and straining to come up with a way to lose with their winning hand again. And the way they're doing it is almost the opposite of being too much of the extreme lefty type: they're trying to bury any actual liberals/progressives in their own party and make sure the party stays in the control of its Republican-mimicking corporate wing and digs up another insider-machine candidate who might as well be hand-picked for them by the Republicans.
The article talks about liberals not leftists. The two are not the same even in the USA.
 
Modern economics doesn't need to make a case that market efficiency is valuable, you accept that when you accept the value of free markets to begin with. If economic efficiency is not a goal then there is no need to bother with free markets to begin with.

Modern economics doesn't advocate that you need to bother with free markets or even state or assume efficiency is a goal. Economics provides the same tools to study a completely planned economy. It is the tools for even things we don't think of as conventional goods and services (public choice theory).
 
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