Right, Left and coddling

[Fudbucker]

I read it the same way as you and looking back it's the only way that post and the ensuing discussion actually makes sense.

OK. I don't see that, but I could be wrong. Ziggurat, I'm going to do a mea culpa and assume the problem was on my end. I'm sorry for claiming you were dishonest.

 

[Fudbucker]

If you assume that everybody was pining for the good old days of segregation, then yes, going back to the 1950s sounds intolerable. If you think about it more as nostalgia for the entertainment elements of American culture --the movies, the TV, the music, etc.--then it's not so scary. Also the economy was pretty damn good back then; it is not at all unusual to hear somebody like Michael Moore (no Trump supporter) saying (with dismay) that this isn't the same country he grew up in. Back then you could graduate high school, get a good job and start a family. Pretty soon you were buying a new car every two years. Wouldn't you like to see income inequality at 1950s levels?

Economic mobility for POC and women was much less than today, although income inequality was lower and the middle class was healthier.

The impression I get from that poll was Trump supporters don't like the cultural changes that have taken place since then. That's what scares me, and it dovetails with the racism and misogyny I see from Trump and a lot of his alt-right base.

 

[kellyb]

And none of those scales is relevant here. The relevant scale is relative to the American polity, because we're talking about American politics.

I understand that that's your view, but it seems to be peculiar to American conservatives.

 

[kellyb]

That doesn't answer the question at all. Those policies can still only be judged as left or right relative to something. And the relevant relative metric for that, in a thread about US politics, is US public opinion.

When American get polled opinion by opinion on economic issues, they're almost as left as Europeans.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/351928-poll-majority-supports-single-payer-healthcare

The latest Harvard-Harris Poll survey found 52 percent favor a single-payer system against 48 who oppose it. A strong majority of Democrats — 69 percent — back the idea. Republicans oppose single-payer, 65-35, and independents are split, with 51 percent opposing and 49 supporting.

And then there's this - Americans are basically communists when it comes to how we think wealth should be distributed:

 

[Fudbucker]

When American get polled opinion by opinion on economic issues, they're almost as left as Europeans.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/351928-poll-majority-supports-single-payer-healthcare


And then there's this - Americans are basically communists when it comes to how we think wealth should be distributed:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_75725ae5013f4f6f1.png[/qimg]

Our system gives disproportiante(sp) representation to rural Americans, and that happens to be the conservative areas of the country. If the House wasn't gerrymandered all to hell, and the President was elected by populaur vote, and Senate seats were apportioned by population, there would be an immediate lurch to the left, policy-wise.

As it is, the Left is "handicapped" by these factors.

 

[Ziggurat]

When American get polled opinion by opinion on economic issues, they're almost as left as Europeans.

That is incredibly dependent on how polls are constructed, starting with the fact that, by necessity, polls cherry pick issues. Phrase a question about the same issue differently and you can get very different results. Americans don't vote like Europeans, and that's a far truer test.

 

[Ziggurat]

OK. I don't see that, but I could be wrong. Ziggurat, I'm going to do a mea culpa and assume the problem was on my end. I'm sorry for claiming you were dishonest.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I will confess to unnecessary snarkiness as well.

 

[kellyb]

That is incredibly dependent on how polls are constructed, starting with the fact that, by necessity, polls cherry pick issues. Phrase a question about the same issue differently and you can get very different results.

Well, yeah, if you ask if they want "Cuba-style, communist healthcare" they'll say no.

If you call it "Medicare for All", then they like it. That's why people like me have been pushing for years to call it such. Framing and messaging matters.

 

[Brainster]

By the policies they advocate.

Compared to whom?

 

[Brainster]

Compared to the whole rest of the developed world and compared to the US before the 90's.

You at least answered the question, instead of dodging it. Now, what do you think happened in the 1990s to change the situation?

I will tell you my thought. It was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the satellite communist countries, after which the Left in the United States had no compass to tell them where to be aiming. Add that the Republicans had been in power for 12 straight years, and it's no surprise that the Democrats went to their moderate wing. They won and discovered (no surprise) that they liked winning. And given that since (Bill) Clinton, they have gone 2-3, I suspect that they will continue to trim their sails.

 

[Lurch]

Well, yeah, if you ask if they want "Cuba-style, communist healthcare" they'll say no.

If you call it "Medicare for All", then they like it. That's why people like me have been pushing for years to call it such. Framing and messaging matters.

QFT!

Heck, just look at Obamacare. When called that it repulses many brainwashed folk. But when called the ACA most are for it.

Indeed, indeed; messaging matters.

 

[lomiller]

And none of those scales is relevant here. The relevant scale is relative to the American polity, because we're talking about American politics.

Basically you are telling us that the policy of the mainstream parties in the US can't have moved because because one is still to the right of the other. This is useless claptrap that tells us nothing of interest.

If you have an actual case to make for where Republicans and Democrats are on the politic spectrum then make it because your current hand-waving contribute nothing to the discussion. Your Alex Jones style of "I'm just asking questions! I don't need facts!" is really getting old.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Compared to what? Compared to the UK? Compared to France? Compared to what you would like to see?

Who cares? It's still trying to paint the entire scope of human opinions about social, government, and politic issues onto two ends of a single line.

The problem isn't where the two ends of the line are drawn. The problem is the very concept that it's all a line.

This is why every person who's entire opinion about how the world works can't be simplified into membership in a single political fanclub gets shouted down in the wave of whataboutism, notasbadism, and similar nonsense in political discussions.

It's not even about moderation versus extremism per se. It's about not having a seat at the discussion unless your entire scope of opinions can be summed up in one word. Everything has been reduced to only two exactly equal, totally diametrically opposed all encompassing sides and that's all that's allowed. You can't agree with the Dems in one case but the GOP in another, you can't be liberal about one thing and conservative about another, you can't be libertarian about one thing but socialist about another.

Seriously does everybody here really and truly agree with absolutely everything that one of the political parties does? You never, ever disagree with whatever Game of Thrones Political House you've pledged allegiance to does about anything? Because... that's weird.

 

[Jerrymander]

If you assume that everybody was pining for the good old days of segregation, then yes, going back to the 1950s sounds intolerable. If you think about it more as nostalgia for the entertainment elements of American culture --the movies, the TV, the music, etc.--then it's not so scary. Also the economy was pretty damn good back then; it is not at all unusual to hear somebody like Michael Moore (no Trump supporter) saying (with dismay) that this isn't the same country he grew up in. Back then you could graduate high school, get a good job and start a family. Pretty soon you were buying a new car every two years. Wouldn't you like to see income inequality at 1950s levels?

The poll was on culture not economics.

 

[Ziggurat]

Basically you are telling us that the policy of the mainstream parties in the US can't have moved because because one is still to the right of the other. This is useless claptrap that tells us nothing of interest.

That would be useless, but that isn't what I said at all. Nor does it follow logically from what I said. The point of the statement you quoted is simply that the relevant metric for left/right of an American political party is the American public. Movement with respect to this metric is obviously possible, but it is this metric, NOT the metric of European public or anyone else, which matters in that regard.

I have made separate arguments in other posts about whether and how much the US parties have moved, but that is distinct from the statement you quoted, and it relies upon what has happened, not what is logically possible. If you take issue with those other arguments, I suggest you address them directly.

If you have an actual case to make for where Republicans and Democrats are on the politic spectrum then make it because your current hand-waving contribute nothing to the discussion. Your Alex Jones style of "I'm just asking questions! I don't need facts!" is really getting old.

If you have an actual case to make against my actual position, rather than your nonsensical straw man, then make it because your current ad hominems contribute nothing to the discussion.

 

[Brainster]

The poll was on culture not economics.

Oh, well feel free to be terrified then.

 

[Fudbucker]

Oh, well feel free to be terrified then.

You don't think it's alarming for POC, LGBTQ's, and women that Trump (and his supporters) think the cultural changes since the 50's have made things worse?

Extrapolate that out: what would a Trump SCOTUS look like after 8 years. What civil rights rollbacks might be possible? What might happen to abortion rights?

Yes, I would say it would be frightening. For everyone but white men, of course.

 

[Ziggurat]

You don't think it's alarming for POC, LGBTQ's, and women that Trump (and his supporters) think the cultural changes since the 50's have made things worse?

Which changes? The poll doesn't specify. Which allows respondents to cherry pick their concerns, which may not include any of the referenced ideas.

Plus, I bet a lot of poll respondents don't even have a clear idea of how things have changed since the 1950's, making their answers even more useless for this sort of analysis.

Extrapolate that out: what would a Trump SCOTUS look like after 8 years. What civil rights rollbacks might be possible? What might happen to abortion rights?

Yes, I would say it would be frightening. For everyone but white men, of course.

Do you think outlawing abortion would help white men? Because I don't.

 

[Fudbucker]

Which changes? The poll doesn't specify. Which allows respondents to cherry pick their concerns, which may not include any of the referenced ideas.

It doesn't specify, but based on Trump and the alt-right's racism and misogyny, and trump's hostility towards LGBTQ people (e.g., wanting to ban them from the military) it's not a tough guess: cultural changes regarding minority, women, and LGBTQ rights.

As someone who voted for Clinton, and who would have answered that poll "Yes, those cultural changes have been good", I knew exactly what cultural changes that poll had in mind.

Plus, I bet a lot of poll respondents don't even have a clear idea of how things have changed since the 1950's, making their answers even more useless for this sort of analysis.

The respondents didn't have a clear idea of how women, minorities and gays were treated in the 1950's vs today? That's absurd.

Do you think outlawing abortion would help white men? Because I don't.

Let's go back to that article from the thinktank Bolton chaired:

"The point here is not whether or not abortion is "bad" or immoral, or if the policy should be reversed. The point is to show that the "white death" of Europe is a mathematical reality; and that this plague is not only self-inflicted, but that it began with the legalization of "birth control" and abortion even before the massive influx of Muslim migrants."
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11044/europe-white-death

But here in America, I don't think the cultural changes the poll respondents were addressing necessarily had to do with abortion (although with the "browning" of America, I'm sure they had it in mind), but with women not tolerating the white-male power structure that existed, and the economic mobility they enjoy today that they had to struggle for. Why else does the alt-right hate feminists so much?

 

[Ziggurat]

It doesn't specify, but based on Trump and the alt-right's racism and misogyny, and trump's hostility towards LGBTQ people (e.g., wanting to ban them from the military) it's not a tough guess: cultural changes regarding minority, women, and LGBTQ rights.

You're basing your conclusions on your biases against your opponent, rather than verifiable facts. Do you not see how this can lead to self-deception?

As someone who voted for Clinton, and who would have answered that poll "Yes, those cultural changes have been good", I knew exactly what cultural changes that poll had in mind.

It doesn't matter what the poll had in mind, what matters is what the respondents had in mind.

The respondents didn't have a clear idea of how women, minorities and gays were treated in the 1950's vs today? That's absurd.

Why is that absurd? Basically none of them were adults at the time. For many of them, their parents may not even have been born. What do they really know? And why are you limiting their ignorance to those specific topics? I'm certainly not.

Let's go back to that article from the thinktank Bolton chaired:

"The point here is not whether or not abortion is "bad" or immoral, or if the policy should be reversed. The point is to show that the "white death" of Europe is a mathematical reality; and that this plague is not only self-inflicted, but that it began with the legalization of "birth control" and abortion even before the massive influx of Muslim migrants."
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11044/europe-white-death

But here in America, I don't think the cultural changes the poll respondents were addressing necessarily had to do with abortion (although with the "browning" of America, I'm sure they had it in mind), but with women not tolerating the white-male power structure that existed, and the economic mobility they enjoy today that they had to struggle for. Why else does the alt-right hate feminists so much?

First, this doesn't actually make any sense. Abortion rates are HIGHER for blacks in the US than for whites. In fact, abortion opponents often use that fact, along with some now-retrograde opinions on eugenics and race from Margaret Sanger, to argue that abortion advocacy is racist. I'm not arguing that this view is correct, but it's incompatible with the view you reference. And it's pretty wide-spread in anti-abortion circles.

Second, a failure to imagine motives other than the one advanced doesn't constitute proof of those motives.

Third, the "alt-right" is only part of Trump's support. Where is your evidence that the alt-right in particular is nostalgic for the 1950's?