Rick Santorum: John McCain Doesn't Understand Torture

[sarge]

What if I could prove to you that santorum was lying about that?...would that change your mind?

Yes, it would.

Under that kind of reasoning, I simply need to believe that I'm not committing a crime when I run a red light....

See how that kind of "logic" works next time you are stopped by a cop.

The two situations are not similar at all. If San to rum believes that water boarding is not torture, then he is not claiming that McCain doesn't know about torture. It really is just that simple.

Those people are stupid and wrong. By default that makes them not "respectable".

That those people disagree with you (and I) about whether or not water boarding is torture makes them neither stupid nor wrong. Of the 5 of us, they have the more credibility on the subject, by far. Certainly, I am comfortable "respecting" each of them even if we disagree on a single subject.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It occurs to me that this man is RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. I think it's a good idea to have his stupid well known.

It occurs to me that he'd first need to win the GOP primary. His last effort in that regard was a farce. That you take him seriously as a candidate is risible.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Enhanced interrogation is to torture as Intelligent Design is to Creationism. These are devices used to make untenable positions seem more tenable by using nicer sounding phrases. The righties KNOW that waterboarding is torture, they think using the right words can trick people into thinking it's not.

For Rick to say that John McCain doesn't understand "enhanced interrogation" is basically saying that McCain doesn't know what torture is. It's as stupid as a ID'er saying that biologists don't know what science is.

 

[leftysergeant]

It occurs to me that he'd first need to win the GOP primary. His last effort in that regard was a farce. That you take him seriously as a candidate is risible.

The last time around there were fewer obvious Looney Toons running.

Some of this year's crew make even Sick Rick look sane. The public deserves to be reminded what a waste of human DNA he is.

 

[R.A.F.]

Enhanced interrogation is to torture as Intelligent Design is to Creationism. These are devices used to make untenable positions seem more tenable by using nicer sounding phrases. The righties KNOW that waterboarding is torture, they think using the right words can trick people into thinking it's not.

Sure seems to have "fooled" sarge and Joe.

For Rick to say that John McCain doesn't understand "enhanced interrogation" is basically saying that McCain doesn't know what torture is. It's as stupid as a ID'er saying that biologists don't know what science is.

Very nice analogy.

 

[R.A.F.]

If San to rum believes that water boarding is not torture, then he is not claiming that McCain doesn't know about torture. It really is just that simple.

...and just why do you take his "word" for that?? Present your evidence...

That those people disagree with you (and I) about whether or not water boarding is torture makes them neither stupid nor wrong. Of the 5 of us, they have the more credibility on the subject, by far. Certainly, I am comfortable "respecting" each of them even if we disagree on a single subject.

I have a lot of trouble respecting willfully ignorant people. They waste the air they breath.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

The mind boggles.


Torture victim John McCain doesn't understand how torture works, says former senator Rick Santorum Link NSFW!

We don't even need comedians to weigh in on this one, Santorum's statement writes its own jokes.

 

[IMST]

It occurs to me that he'd first need to win the GOP primary. His last effort in that regard was a farce. That you take him seriously as a candidate is risible.

The republican party membership that will determine the primary is so controlled by the far right and the field is so weak that, no, I don't rule him out completely. And I'd be very happy to see him further ruin his chances, something best accomplished by publicizing his failures.

 

[sarge]

...and just why do you take his "word" for that?? Present your evidence...

You are demanding that I provide evidence for an argument I didn't present - while I patiently wait for you to present evidence you implied you have.

I said the obvious and irrefutable fact:

If Santorum believes that waterboarding is not torture, and he claims that McCain doesn't know anything about waterboarding, then Santorum has not claimed that McCain doesn't know anything about torture.

I did not claim that Santorum actually believes what he said. I also didn't claim that waterboarding isn't actually torture.

I have a lot of trouble respecting willfully ignorant people. They waste the air they breath.

No - you have a lot of trouble respecting people that have the temerity to disagree with you. There is a difference.

 

[Spindrift]

You are demanding that I provide evidence for an argument I didn't present - while I patiently wait for you to present evidence you implied you have.

I said the obvious and irrefutable fact:

If Santorum believes that waterboarding is not torture, and he claims that McCain doesn't know anything about waterboarding, then Santorum has not claimed that McCain doesn't know anything about torture.

No, if Santorum believes that waterboarding is not torture, and he claims that McCain doesn't know anything about waterboarding then Santorum may believe he has not claimed that McCain doesn't know anything about torture.

What Santorum does or does not believe doesn't change the obvious and irrefutable fact that waterboarding is torture.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Referring to "non consensual sex" as if it were different from "rape" doesn't change that they are the same thing. If I therefore refer to a victim of rape as someone who doesn't know what rape actually entails, I should expect to be criticized, even if I really believe rape is not the same as non consensual sex.

And, really, John McCain was subjected to intense torture, but not to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? The NVA just skipped right over those?


I understand the point you're trying to make, Joe and Sarge...but it's nothing more than apologetics - the same everyone on this forum blasts away at DOC, et al, for making.

 

[R.A.F.]

You are demanding that I provide evidence for an argument I didn't present...

So you deny that you believe what santorium says??

...while I patiently wait for you to present evidence you implied you have.

No I merely said "what if"...

I said the obvious and irrefutable fact...

Facts don't begin with "if".

I did not claim that Santorum actually believes what he said. I also didn't claim that waterboarding isn't actually torture.

So then you agree with the basic tiopic of this post...that santorium thinks McCain doesn't know as much about torture as he does.

So what are you arguing about?...

...you have a lot of trouble respecting people that have the temerity to disagree with you.

..or anonymous posters on the internet who have trouble backing up their arguments.

 

[R.A.F.]

...John McCain was subjected to intense torture, but not to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? The NVA just skipped right over those?

Good question...can't wait to see joe and sarge try to "tap dance" their way around it.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The republican party membership that will determine the primary is so controlled by the far right and the field is so weak that, no, I don't rule him out completely. And I'd be very happy to see him further ruin his chances, something best accomplished by publicizing his failures.

Just like last time, all he has to do to screw up his chances is open his mouth.

No campaign funds required.

 

[tyr_13]

Referring to "non consensual sex" as if it were different from "rape" doesn't change that they are the same thing. If I therefore refer to a victim of rape as someone who doesn't know what rape actually entails, I should expect to be criticized, even if I really believe rape is not the same as non consensual sex.

And, really, John McCain was subjected to intense torture, but not to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? The NVA just skipped right over those?


I understand the point you're trying to make, Joe and Sarge...but it's nothing more than apologetics - the same everyone on this forum blasts away at DOC, et al, for making.

I don't think Joe or Sarge are trying in any way to excuse what Santorum said, they are just insisting in accuracy in the criticisms of it. I don't see anything wrong with that. Santorum is wrong, and his statements prove just how woefully wrong he is, but it's important still to be correct in describing how and in what way what he said is wrong. Joe and Sarge both point out an additional layer of wrongness that is other wised missed. Santorum is so misguided that he doesn't think that McCain can understand 'enhanced interrogation' because it's different than torture. It isn't, and McCain is very well versed in the use of such techniques, the drawbacks, and how they are torture, and importantly, how exactly 'enhanced interrogation' is torture. That Santorum can't link what was done to McCain to 'enhanced interrogation' is his failing.

It illustrates very nicely the kind of doublethink Santorum is capable of, and why he is unfit for any public office.

 

[sarge]

No, if Santorum believes that waterboarding is not torture, and he claims that McCain doesn't know anything about waterboarding then Santorum may believe he has not claimed that McCain doesn't know anything about torture.

Perfectly backwards. Perfectly.

What Santorum does or does not believe doesn't change the obvious and irrefutable fact that waterboarding is torture.

That you and I believe that water boarding is torture is next to meaningless, so long as their is not something approaching a consensus on the subject. There does not appear to be a consensus - there is considerable dispute.

"Torture" is a legal construct, and until very recently the legal definition of "torture" specifically excluded water boarding.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Evidence that waterboarding was specifically excluded from the definition of torture?

 

[sarge]

So you deny that you believe what santorium says??



No I merely said "what if"...



Facts don't begin with "if".



So then you agree with the basic tiopic of this post...that santorium thinks McCain doesn't know as much about torture as he does.

So what are you arguing about?...



..or anonymous posters on the internet who have trouble backing up their arguments.

Crap. You continue to argue against a position I did not take, while simultaneously errect false dilemmas.

Go back, read it all again until you understand what I actrually wrote. Or don't. Either way, I can't imagine anything productive resulting from wasting more time on this subject with you.

 

[sarge]

Evidence that waterboarding was specifically excluded from the definition of torture?

The entire body of opinions provided by the agents of the previouys chief executive of the United States.

The President and his Attorney General declared water boarding to not be torture. In the absence of a finding by a court, that is quite defining.

Of course, courts have since (rightly) ruled the obvious - in the US, water boarding is torture.

 

[Chaos]

The entire body of opinions provided by the agents of the previouys chief executive of the United States.

The President and his Attorney General declared water boarding to not be torture. In the absence of a finding by a court, that is quite defining.

Of course, courts have since (rightly) ruled the obvious - in the US, water boarding is torture.

Let them declare and define all they want. They can declare themselves Martians and define their political opponents as orcs, but that doesn´t mean they are.