Rick Santorum: John McCain Doesn't Understand Torture

[Upchurch]

Megan McCain:

Rick Santorum telling my father doesn't know about torture is like Carrot Top telling Lebron James he doesn't know about basketball.

 

[Emet]

Cindy McCain Tweets:

Imagine pres candidate Santorum saying my husband @SenJohnMcCain doesn't understand torture. Really?!?!

http://twitter.com/#!/cindyhm1

 

[sarge]

I think they used water and a towel or rag.

Water and a towel or rag is waterboarding. As far as I can determine, the North Vietnamese didn't use waterboarding as a torture technique. It certainly does not seem to have been a widely used torture in North Vietnam. It was used by the US and its allies with some regularity.

So - while McCain was certainly tortured, and while I (and US goverments past) consider waterboarding torture, I don't believe McCain was waterboarded.

 

[timhau]

Megan McCain:

From the same article:

Former McCain aide Mark Salter was less discrete, heaping sharp criticism of Santorum on his Facebook page: "Ron Paul may be the wackiest candidate in the GOP field. But for pure, blind stupidity, nobody beats Santorum,” he wrote. “In my 20 years in the Senate, I never met a dumber member, which he reminded me of today.”

 

[KingMerv00]

From the same article:

Any man who employs someone that correct can't be all bad.

 

[R.A.F.]

I understood him to say that so long as Santorum does not define waterboarding as torture, Santorum is not saying that McCain doesn't know what torture is.

Yes...you're giving santorum an "out" because of how santorum defines words.

eta...in other words, you're "taking santorum's word" that he thinks "enhanced techniques" are not torture.

Ever heard of a politician lying to make their "point" seem reasonable?

 

[sarge]

Yes...you're giving santorum an "out" because of how santorum defines words.

Nope. If Santorum does not believe that waterboarding is torture, and actually believes that "enhanced interogation techniques" differs from torture, then Santorum can say that McCain does not understand enhanced interogation without automatically saying that McCain does not understand torture.

Within the context of Santorum's statment, that waterboarding is torture is only relevant if Santorum believes waterboarding to be torture.

eta...in other words, you're "taking santorum's word" that he thinks "enhanced techniques" are not torture.

I have nothing to indicate that Santorum is not that stupid. It seems that no small number of people do not believe that waterboarding amounts to torture - including some otherwise respectable people.

Ever heard of a politician lying to make their "point" seem reasonable?

Of course. Ever heard of someone making an unfounded assumption in an attempt to not admit a possible error?

 

[Spindrift]

I do like Sen. Bob Kerrey's definition: "Santorum — That's Latin for *******."

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair05012003.html

 

[Dancing David]

Water and a towel or rag is waterboarding. As far as I can determine, the North Vietnamese didn't use waterboarding as a torture technique. It certainly does not seem to have been a widely used torture in North Vietnam. It was used by the US and its allies with some regularity.

So - while McCain was certainly tortured, and while I (and US goverments past) consider waterboarding torture, I don't believe McCain was waterboarded.

Fair enough, it was something I heard a loooong time ago...

I know that they tended to use starvation and beating.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Apparently all one needs do to rid themselves of any responsibility for what they say is to "redefine" what words mean.

That's a complete mischaracterization of what I have said. I never claimed Santorum isn't responsible for his remarks.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Boy, you're sure giving that idiot santorum the benefit of the doubt.

Doesn't matter really...he's "put his foot" in it, and no amount of rationalizing will "save" him from being forever known as the dumbest person in congress.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Do you believe any of this does anything to further a discussion?

Also, I don't believe you have in fact read my posts if you think I'm giving Santorum the benefit of the doubt.

In fact, I believe he deserves the strongest of criticism, but for the right reason. That is, that he thinks "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I also disagree with him but his statement can be logical to the extent that someone who was tortured the way that McCain was does not neccesarily understand the theory behind how "enhanced interorogation works".

That's a possibility, but given his reluctance to use the word "torture" and the arguments that have been made in favor of "enhanced interrogation", I don't think so.

In fact, I don't think the euphemism "enhanced interrogation" is used by anyone not trying to make the distinction between it and torture.

I would be willing to bet that if he were questioned on it, Santorum would echo Bush's words and deny that anything the U.S. has done is torture.

 

[bookitty]

What's going on here.. lefties taking up for John McCain?

Oh, that's right, the election has been over for some time. I forgot. Carry on.

Far-leftie here. I was seriously considering McCain as a candidate. My biggest concern at the time was bipartisanship in Washington. While I did not agree with McCain on some smaller issues, I felt that he had a much better chance of getting everyone to work together. Until he chose "Real American" Palin as his running mate.

 

[R.A.F.]

Do you believe any of this does anything to further a discussion?

What?...calling santorum an idiot?

What further discussion is needed? He's basically hated by everyone, even fellow republicans.

I don't believe you have in fact read my posts if you think I'm giving Santorum the benefit of the doubt.

Then stop making excuses for him..

In fact, I believe he deserves the strongest of criticism, but for the right reason. That is, that he thinks "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture.

...and for making a stupid remark about mccain.

 

[R.A.F.]

If Santorum does not believe that waterboarding is torture, and actually believes that "enhanced interogation techniques" differs from torture, then Santorum can say that McCain does not understand enhanced interogation without automatically saying that McCain does not understand torture.

What if I could prove to you that santorum was lying about that?...would that change your mind?

Within the context of Santorum's statment, that waterboarding is torture is only relevant if Santorum believes waterboarding to be torture.

Under that kind of reasoning, I simply need to believe that I'm not committing a crime when I run a red light....

See how that kind of "logic" works next time you are stopped by a cop.

It seems that no small number of people do not believe that waterboarding amounts to torture - including some otherwise respectable people.

Those people are stupid and wrong. By default that makes them not "respectable".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What?...calling santorum an idiot?

No. Your post berating me for what you somehow think I have done that I have not. I quoted it in my response so you needn't guess about what I was referring to.

Then stop making excuses for him..

I'm not. I suspect you are not reading my posts in their entirety.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Those people are stupid and wrong. By default that makes them not "respectable".

And name-calling is not argumentation. If you want a good example of how to argue the position that waterboarding is torture you should read my posts over the last several years on threads devoted to that topic. My main approach is to show what the legal definition of torture is and then to show how waterboarding plainly fits that definition.

But calling people "stupid" doesn't make that case. In fact it's pretty much the purest example of the ad hominem fallacy.

 

[Chaos]

Do you really believe even for one second that Santorum doesn´t know that "enhanced interrogation" is torture?

 

[R.A.F.]

...calling people "stupid" doesn't make that case.

"Stupid" is not name calling...it is a term which accurately describes the mental "abilities" of some people.

If you would prefer a different term, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[R.A.F.]

No. Your post berating me for what you somehow think I have done that I have not.

If you don't want to be labeled a santorum "apologist" then stop trying to convince people that santorum doesn't understand that advanced techniques equal torture.