Rick Perry, mind like a steel trap I tells ya...

[Corsair 115]

See, if you'd said humanism was a religion*, I'd probably agree with you.

In the sense of being a body of moral reasoning that follows from a set of commonly-recognized humanist axioms.

And where is belief in a supernatural deity/deities part? That's pretty much a staple of every religion.

 

[daredelvis]

I remember the days when a certain individual here ,though a Republican, would criticise other Republicans when they did something stupid. I noticied he stopped doing that in Early November of last year,and went into kneejerk defenses anytime a Republican was attacked for whatever reason. Sad.

Evidence? Even pre-11/2008 things were pretty quiet on that front.

Daredelvis

 

[theprestige]

And where is belief in a supernatural deity/deities part? That's pretty much a staple of every religion.

So? Live a little. Innovate. Don't be bound by primitive customs and obsolete tradition. Make social progress.

Subscribe to a set of moral axioms. Reason a moral framework from those axioms. Learn it. Live it. Teach it. Make it the first religion in human history that does some pracitcal social good without needing to believe in a supernatural entity.

"There is no god" only gets you so far.

"Atheism is not a religion" only gets you so far.

 

[SomedayGirl]

I, for one, am incredibly thankful we have such a sharp-eyed governor. He's the only one who sees it. Obviously the reason my beloved state is dangling near the bottom in educational outcomes by almost every measure is because the school lawn has no creche in December. Watch out, MA...

 

[Newtons Bit]

I, for one, am incredibly thankful we have such a sharp-eyed governor. He's the only one who sees it. Obviously the reason my beloved state is dangling near the bottom in educational outcomes by almost every measure is because the school lawn has no creche in December. Watch out, MA...

I live in New Mexico, from my view, your schools are awesome.

Texas is 12th in the USA (at least according to USNews, of which I have no idea how accurate this really is but it popped up first in my investigoogling)

NEA also has a publication, but doesn't rank schools with an overall qualifier. You can look at things like student/teacher ratios and wutnot to get an idea of how it compares with other States. Of course, I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "educational outcomes". Graduation rates?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

The only problem with Christmas is that Christianity thinks it has a monopoly. Christmas originated as an amalgamation of solstice festivals from many different cultures and traditions. Generosity, charity, and spending time with one's friends and loved ones are humanistic values. I say Christmas belongs to everyone who wishes to celebrate it, regardless of one's religious affiliation.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And where is belief in a supernatural deity/deities part? That's pretty much a staple of every religion.

No it isn't.

Many Buddhists have no belief in a supernatural deity as a staple.

 

[RandFan]

The only problem with Christmas is that Christianity thinks it has a monopoly. Christmas originated as an amalgamation of solstice festivals from many different cultures and traditions. Generosity, charity, and spending time with one's friends and loved ones are humanistic values. I say Christmas belongs to everyone who wishes to celebrate it, regardless of one's religious affiliation.

The whole "war on Christmas", IIRC, started when people got upset with some national store saying "happy holidays". Oh - my - god! So much for turn the other cheek. Where did Christ say to get upset with anyone that says the wrong thing on his celebrated day of birth?

How that turned into "atheists want to take our christmas" is beyond me.

War On Christmas: Right-Wing Group Creates ‘Naughty Or Nice’ List Of Companies That Do Not Mention Christmas Enough

 

[elbe]

No it isn't.

Many Buddhists have no belief in a supernatural deity as a staple.

Obviously they're just mad at god too.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

My own take is that atheism is a doctrine (as is theism, transubstantiationism, trinitarianism, etc.) and not a religion itself (same as with theism). Discrimination based on doctrine is illegal under the First Amendment.

There can, and are, atheist and Humanist religions.

ESA v. Rylander rejected state arguments that religion must be defined by a belief in a "Supreme Being" and ruled that religious tax exemptions must be granted to the non-theistic Ethical Cultural Society.

Here's a relatively recent federal circuit court decision that says atheism is the equivalent of a religion for purposes of the First Amendment: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1467028.html

I think much of this decision echoes what ThePrestige said in post #43, and is a healthy and reasonable attitude.


Getting back to Perry's statement: I think he's trying to contradict McCollum v. Board of Education which is now very well established law. (That is, it's been relied on for subsequent decisions, and is not likely to be reviewed or reversed.) Government endorsement of a religion (displaying religious icons, prayer or religious services in public school, etc.) violate the Establishment Clause. In that sense, we do indeed have "freedom from religion".

If he only means no one has the right to be insulated from speech acts about religion, that's a pretty silly and trivial observation to make. Did anyone think we have such a freedom?

 

[SezMe]

And where is belief in a supernatural deity/deities part? That's pretty much a staple of every religion.

My highlight.

No it isn't.

Many Buddhists have no belief in a supernatural deity as a staple.

So one counter example does not negate Corsair's statement.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Obviously they're just mad at god too.

That's all right--one day karma will catch up to the God that goes around smiting people who simultaneously don't believe he exists and fear him.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

My highlight.

So one counter example does not negate Corsair's statement.

It depends on how you read his possibly ambiguous statement.

And where is belief in a supernatural deity/deities part? That's pretty much a staple of every religion.

I take "pretty much" to go with "a staple" and not with "every religion". If he meant it to go with "every religion" it would have made a lot more sense to say, "That's a staple of pretty much every religion."

Your reading is possible, but not the most reasonable.

ETA: And in the more reasonable parsing of it, one example of a religion where belief in a supernatural deity/deities isn't remotely a staple is sufficient to refute it.

 

[Brainster]

I think the law is likely to be struck down on the Menorah/Creche issue. But again, I don't see anything odd or foolish in what Perry said. Sorry to be such a disappointment to you all.

 

[SomedayGirl]

I live in New Mexico, from my view, your schools are awesome.

Texas is 12th in the USA (at least according to USNews, of which I have no idea how accurate this really is but it popped up first in my investigoogling)

NEA also has a publication, but doesn't rank schools with an overall qualifier. You can look at things like student/teacher ratios and wutnot to get an idea of how it compares with other States. Of course, I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "educational outcomes". Graduation rates?

We absolutely have some top notch high schools and we likely skunk NM in this regard...but that's to be expected when my state has 26M peeps and yours has 2M. Second in US population, 12th in top ranked high schools per your link. Even a blind squirrel, as they say.

35th on the NAEP, testing 4th and 8th grade acheivement:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...t-kids-from-massachusetts-to-mississippi.html

My state, yes as you mentioned, next to last in graduation rates:

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjourn...oming-and-dc-are-leaders-in-new.html?page=all

47th in SAT scores:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/states/uschartsat.html

College completion, not great:

http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/college-stats/

33 of 50 for those holding a degree:

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank19.html

Now that Governor Goodhair signed on for schools to display a Baby Jesus for a month all will be well...it's a mercy our lege only meets for 140 days every 2 years. Just imagine what they would do if legislatin' was a real job.

 

[Brainster]

Why does Perry need to say what he said? Who is arguing that they need to be "free from religion"? No one. That's the problem. It's a giant straw man. I don't know how many times I can say this but Christians (and other theists) are not in any threat from atheists. No atheist I know of is calling for the banning of churches, church billboards, bibles in hotel rooms, etc., etc..

You appear to be ignorant of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

The organization aggressively pursues public-interest lawsuits and engages in public debates to further its goal of removing religious observance and influence from all aspects of society.

Italics added for emphasis.

 

[RandFan]

You appear to be ignorant of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

I listen to them weekly. Please to state a single case they have brought to ban religious observance?

The organization aggressively pursues public-interest lawsuits and engages in public debates to further its goal of removing religious observance and influence from all aspects of society.

Italics added for emphasis.

[citation missing] No. Wikipedia is NOT a source. wiki ******* pedia? Are you serious?

I'll ask you one more time, please to cite a single case they have brought to remove religious observance? That is a lie. And for the record, Brainster, if you are going to use wikipedia as a reference, which I do all of the time, make certain the quote is sourced on wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a source, it's a starting point.

The truth is that FFRF seeks equal treatment. If you are going to have a creche or nativity scene on a public square then allow ALL religions and atheists to use the public square.

I'm willing to bet you can't find a single case. Care to wager an avatar on it?

 

[elbe]

You appear to be ignorant of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Italics added for emphasis.

So I was looking through the FFRF's website and I just can't find where they claim that that's their goal. I even used google's "site:ffrf.org" option with no luck. I'm sure it's my fault that I can't find it, so could you be so kind as to link to where the FFRF actually says that?

 

[RandFan]

The Truth:

Of course you can always go to the source. www.ffrf.org

The nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state. The Foundation is the nation's largest association of freethinkers (atheists, agnostics and skeptics) with over 19,000 members.

Since 1978, the Foundation has acted on countless violations of the separation of state and church, and has taken and won many significant complaints and important lawsuits to end state/church entanglements.

Won’t you join us in our critical work to defend the separation between government and religion?

Can we get a correction?

 

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The organization aggressively pursues public-interest lawsuits and engages in public debates to further its goal of removing religious observance and influence from all aspects of society.

That is a very surprising quote to me, since I am very familiar with the FFRF. I will send this off to Dan and Annie Laurie to find out how this found its way into their Wiki entry. Interfering with religious practice is very far from their goal. Assisting those who want to escape their ties to religion certainly is part of the scope of their activities, but not destroying anyone's belief or institution in any malicious way.

They actually win most of their cases.