Richard Dawkins brings court case

[cj.23]

I found this interesting.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/10/22/31283.htm

Bloody shame all round, hope resolves well

cj x

 

[ddt]

That name, Josh Timonen, rings familiar. He's the same guy who was behind the clamping down of the Richard Dawkins forum. I wonder if Dawkins now looks in a different light to that episode...

 

[Floyt]

So he is. Well, that'll resonate with all the forum refugees.

 

[AdMan]

It is sad, even more so because Timonen and Dawkins had been close friends (see the dedication page for The Greatest Show on Earth).

Here's a blog post with some behind-the-scenes perspective on the closing of the forum.

 

[Cain]

That's what you get for trusting an atheist (nobody ever embezzles money from churches).

 

[Virus]

Wow. He didn't just skim off the top, he took everything and left the skim. From a charity. And he was on $100,000 a year too. Greedy little bugger.

 

[geni]

Wow. He didn't just skim off the top, he took everything and left the skim. From a charity. And he was on $100,000 a year too. Greedy little bugger.

Eh anecdotaly it been something I've seen a fair bit with small charities of late. Perhaps I just know about the wrong charities.

 

[KateHL]

Tinomen is certainly in the wrong, but I found this a bit nauseating (from the article):

In his 18-page complaint, Dawkins describes himself as "the world's best known and most respected atheist."

Seriously? He has the nerve to call himself the 'most respected atheist'? Best known I understand, but it takes cajones to call oneself the 'most respected' anything. My Dawkins love is falling a few major pegs.

 

[AdMan]

Tinomen is certainly in the wrong, but I found this a bit nauseating (from the article):



Seriously? He has the nerve to call himself the 'most respected atheist'? Best known I understand, but it takes cajones to call oneself the 'most respected' anything. My Dawkins love is falling a few major pegs.

Well, I am sure he didn't write that document himself, but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Well, I am sure he didn't write that document himself, but I see where you're coming from.

Yes, it doesn't sound like something Dawkins would say about himself.

I hope that SOB Timonen gets his luxury homes, allegedly improved by the foundations money, seized by the courts.

 

[geni]

Tinomen is certainly in the wrong, but I found this a bit nauseating (from the article):



Seriously? He has the nerve to call himself the 'most respected atheist'? Best known I understand, but it takes cajones to call oneself the 'most respected' anything. My Dawkins love is falling a few major pegs.

In any case the likes of stalin and the chinese leadership are probably the best known athiests.

 

[cj.23]

Hey, crap happens, humans being human, ragrdless of religious belief or lack thereof. I critisiced Timonen on my blog over the forum closure fiasco - yes the ex-members in exile are celebrating (how I heard - http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/dawkins-sues-josh-timonen-t14455.html ) but it's just one of those things. Felt sorry for Dawkins though - but I will wait for the court judgment before I take it all too seriously. There might still be some misunderstanding or something


cj x

 

[angrysoba]

In any case the likes of stalin and the chinese leadership are probably the best known athiests.

They were also shown quite a bit of respect in their lifetimes as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fik2-kgOgng&p=1B2E8AB831096923&playnext=1&index=74

 

[eeyore1954]

Wow. He didn't just skim off the top, he took everything and left the skim. From a charity. And he was on $100,000 a year too. Greedy little bugger.

KateHL says Tinomen is certainly in the wrong, but I found this a bit nauseating (from the article):

I guess guilty until proven innocent is the theory here.
I wonder if he also looking for criminal charges or just money.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, let's please remember the adverb "allegedly" here, okay?

 

[Delvo]

Timonen and Dawkins had been close friends (see the dedication page for The Greatest Show on Earth).

When some people at the forum were pissed off about things being changed or the forum closing, Dawkins apparently always defended Timonen and all that he did, essentially saying if you have a problem with JT, you have a problem with RD.

I critisiced Timonen on my blog over the forum closure fiasco - yes the ex-members in exile are celebrating (how I heard - http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/dawkins-sues-josh-timonen-t14455.html

14 pages in 9 hours!

I didn't really follow the details of that mess when it was happening. Did people who didn't like it or some aspect of it tend to blame JT and not RD?

 

[cj.23]

Yeah, he was responsible for the decision to close the forum -- from my blog

http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/the-end-of-an-era-richard-dawkins-forum-to-close/
http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/death-of-an-atheist-forum-the-lessons-of-history/
http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/richard-dawkins-on-changes-at-the-forum/
http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/in-praise-of-josh-timonen/
http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/...-new-forum-for-exiles-rationalskepticism-org/

but rather shorter and better (as they were all written as events transpired), and from a former mod (Peter Harrison) http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/locked-entry-will-open-soon/

Even shorter, JT closed the forum, the mods and admin staff were sidelined, RD came to JT's defence when he was criticised, and now many of the ex-forumites are rather amused at the turn of events.

cj x

 

[not daSkeptic]

Unless there was a written work-for-hire contract, it's going to come down to the exact nature of the relationship between Dawkin's foundation and Timonen. There is some mention of Timonen working through his own company, in which case he was not legally an employee of the foundation. If the works in question were produced under that arrangement, then without a written work-for-hire agreement the works belong to Timonen.

I myself have run into work-for-hire disputes before. Unless you're an employee or you otherwise agree in writing to relinquish ownership of works you produce, they're yours.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

 

[pipelineaudio]

While I still absolutely love Richard Dawkins, perhaps he has learned a lesson from this about being too proud to admit he hired the wrong guy

Life is a learning experience

 

[cj.23]

Unless there was a written work-for-hire contract, it's going to come down to the exact nature of the relationship between Dawkin's foundation and Timonen. There is some mention of Timonen working through his own company, in which case he was not legally an employee of the foundation. If the works in question were produced under that arrangement, then without a written work-for-hire agreement the works belong to Timonen.

I myself have run into work-for-hire disputes before. Unless you're an employee or you otherwise agree in writing to relinquish ownership of works you produce, they're yours.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

Excellent point daSkeptic!

That was my undertanding as to how the law applies here in the UK as well. As the company was independent fo the charity, the creator of the goods well may be legally the owner. Best wait and see. I still think this may resolve amicably, but I have no vested interest either way.