RFC: Bazant and Zhou Simple Analysis refuted

"One of them is that a child is jumping in a bed ... and, instead of bouncing up and down, the bed is destroyed and the child falls down, down, down and the bed goes into thousand of pieces and the child dies. Many children get terrible dreams of such things. I tell them they do not happen in the real world. I tell them evil persons make up such bad things."

Really, you are telling children that jumping up and down on beds can't cause them to collapse? I'll be damned. I guess that scar on my head from when I was 11 isn't there.

So you are both a No Planer and a No Bed Side Tabler too?
 
I'm sorry maybe I misread it, but did Hiewa just say the top part of the buidling did not impact on the bottom part ? It missed it completly ?

Did he just say that? Honestly?
 
Many children get terrible dreams of such things. I tell them they do not happen in the real world. I tell them evil persons make up such bad things.

Tell them they don't need to look before they cross the road, either, because only evil persons make up stories of children being run over. And tell them it's OK to put their hands on the top of the cooker, and to accept sweets from strangers. Because the only evil people in your world are the ones who pretend that bad things sometimes happen, and we should all shield the little children from such things. In fact, the whole collapse of the WTC towers was just a story made up by evil people who want to scare the children...

But wait - you believe that happened though, don't you?

So you'll reassure the children that jumping up and down on their beds is perfectly safe, and you'll reassure them even more by telling them that their government is a group of infinitely powerful and infinitely evil people who will happily kill them and never get caught, because they'll convince the whole world that someone else did it? So that when they wake up in the night crying, you'll tell them that their nightmares are real, and that the bogeyman is out there, but that he's human, he wears a suit, and they'll never see him coming?

What a wonderful world your children must live in.

Dave
 
It doesn't matter if planes or birds or butterflies impacted the towers.Those impacts (fantasy?) didn't cause the release of potential energy (engineering) much later. It is quite obvious and not Alice in Wonderland.

If you can prove that the potential energy released, as alleged by Nist, caused the collapse of the building below, you are welcome. In my paper for children I just show the opposite. And it is not fantasy.

Grow up!

Unfortunately, your paper has had serious questions asked of it, which you have chosen to ignore.

To those in this thread who didn't follow that discussion, consider Heiwa's "paper" completely debunked.
 
This is simply incredible. Heiwa seems a courteous and articulate correspondent. Yet what he is proposing is appalling, disgusting, sick. Nauseating. The other no-planers generally seem much angrier and ruder. What a strange combination; courteous, articulate, presenting fantasies which are vile. I have a little difficulty with this combination of features. I think I had better leave.
 
Now here's a collapse narrative with some potential (energy!)

Heiwa:

Consider each WTC tower as being divided (mathematically) into upper and lower sections such that an upper mass Mu acts on a lower mass Ml and the mass of the tower Mt is thus [Mu + Ml]. In a normal, undamaged, tower the load acting on Ml is Mu .g. Then, for example, if we consider the upper mass to be say 50,000 tonnes, the downward-acting force on the top of the lower section is 50,000,000 kg x 9.8 m/s^2 ~ 500 MN. In the Twin Towers this load was shared more or less equally between the core and the perimeter columns.

Let us suppose that, under the compressive load of the upper section, the lower section of a tower acts like a giant spring and obeys Hooke’s Law. This means that the downward displacement, d, of the lower section due to the static weight of the upper section is proportional to the applied compressive force, Fu. This leads to the familiar result:

Fu = Mu. g = k.d,

where k is the stiffness, also called the spring constant, of the lower section of the tower.

Now since Young’s modulus, E, equals stress, s, divided by strain, the downward displacement of the top of the lower section of a tower due to static loading by mass Mu, is given by,

d = L. Mu .g /AE

where L is the length of the lower section and A is the effective cross sectional area of the structural steel.

Representative values of L and A would be 300 meters and 5 m^2, respectively, while E for structural steel is typically ~ 200 GPa. It follows that d is ~ 15 cm and since k is equal to Mu. g / d we have k = 3 GN/m. The elastic energy stored by this compression is (500 x 0.15) MJ or 75 MJ. Now since structural steel has an elastic strain energy capacity of 50 J/kg, the building can handle the weight of the upper section because the resulting strain energy is taken up by a large mass of steel below it. There was, in fact, at least 15,000,000 kg of structural steel available to support a 50,000,000 kg upper section, so we have 75 MJ of elastic strain energy per 15 x 10^6 kg or 5 J/kg which is well below the 50 J/kg elastic capacity of the structural steel.

Now consider what happens if there is a failure of a significant number of columns supporting a 50,000,000 kg upper section of a tower. Prior to such a failure we had a stable building in which the downward-acting force on the lower section was countered by an equal and opposite reaction force on the upper section. If the perimeter wall columns should suddenly fail at the interface between our upper and lower sections, the wall will unload some or all of the reaction force so that the downward-acting force now exceeds the reaction force acting on the upper section. This creates a net accelerating force on the upper section of the tower.

Data reported in NCSTAR 1-6D show that the total perimeter column load at the 83rd floor of WTC 2 was about 250 MN. It follows that after unloading by the perimeter columns at or near this floor, the upper section will move downwards under the action of this force with an acceleration, a, given by:

a = Force /Mass ~ 250 MN/50,000,000 = 5 m/s^2 ~ ½ g

Assuming that the upper section drops one story height or 3.7 meters, the stiffness, k, of the “spring” that held up the lower section of the tower has been reduced from 3 GN/m to 68 MN/m, (250 MN/3.7 m). We also note that the work done by the upper section in collapsing one floor, Wc, is given by:

Wc = Force x Distance = 250 MN x 3.7 m = 925 MJ

Now, since the loss in potential energy is Mu. g. h, we see that the amount of kinetic energy gained by the upper section after falling 3.7 meters is:

K.E. = (Mu. g. h) - Wc = (1813 – 925) MJ = 888 MJ

It follows from the equation K.E. = ½ Mu. v^2, that the upper section would be moving with a velocity v ~ 6 m/s after this 3.7 meter drop. It is interesting to note that Wc is identical to the quantity I have previously called E1 and the calculated value of 925 MJ given above is in good agreement with the range of values proposed for E1.

The real-world situation in the twin towers was, however, a little more complex than the simplified model described above because collapse initiation was actually caused by tipping of the upper section. Thus, considering the case of WTC 2, floor truss sagging and/or failures on the east side of this tower between the 80th and the 84th floors affected the lateral bracing between the core and the exterior of the building and led to an inward bowing of the east perimeter wall as seen in Figure 6-21 of NCSTAR 1-6. This bowing caused a measurable tipping of the upper section of WTC 2 that, according to NIST, had already lowered the east side of the upper section of the building by 30 cm about 15 minutes before total collapse started. The associated loss of potential energy by the upper section at this point in time is easily calculated to be about 75 MJ; this energy was converted into strain energy in the east perimeter wall columns because it created shear stresses in the upper and lower splices of these columns.

Just prior to collapse, the inward bowing of the east wall of WTC 2 was well over 50 cm so that the affected perimeter columns eventually failed in shear at the splice bolts. This created a net downward force on the east side of the upper section of WTC 2 that allowed it to tip 3.3 degrees before striking the floor below. However, at this point in time, ¾ of the perimeter wall at or near the 83rd floor - a wall that supported 50 % of the mass of the upper section of the building - would have been destroyed.

The kinetic energy imparted to the upper section of WTC 2 by this tipping motion was actually rotational kinetic energy, (RKE), and is given (approximately) by the formula:

RKE = 1/6 Mu. h^2. {d(theta)/dt}^2

where h is the height of the upper section and d(theta)/dt is the angular velocity in rads/s. Substituting appropriate values into this equation we find that the rotational kinetic energy imparted to the upper block of WTC 2 during the first second of collapse was at least 350 MJ. This would be more than sufficient to shear off many perimeter columns surrounding the floors immediately below the impact zone and so on all the way down the tower.
 
nice try Apollo20 but no plane means, no plane

That was easy. Subject is how they fooled everyone to think that the initiation zone, IZ, suddenly disappeared an hour later and allowed the tower above to drop on the tower below.

Or, who convinced everyone that the potential energy of the mass above IZ exceeded the strain energy of the structure below and that this combination would cause the whole tower to disintegrate into 1000 000's of pieces.

It was Mr Bazant that within 48 hrs produced a scientific paper to this effect! No peer review, of course, in that short time ... and I wonder if the paper wasn't written 48 days before?

Anyway, the Bazant paper is just rubbish; assuming the mass above to be rigid to start with. It is not. Clearly seen on all videos. And then assuming that IZ disappears suddenly allowing free fall of mass above. The contrary is evidently seen on all videos.

And then these strange formulas about overload due to a rigid, instantaneous impact during one millisecond, when it is obvious that the mass above would just hang on to the top after having deformed IZ a little taking much longer, if it ever would happen.

I like the millisecond assumtion. Only an explosion could have produced the relevant energy in that time, which is 1000 times bigger than the release of potential energy from above = 40 kgs of diesel oil.

So you see beechnut - reality is sometimes painful. You see something on a video and you believe it is something else because it suits you.

That's why the efforts of G Urich should be applauded. It is only 64 months too late.
All I have to say to you and Gregory, have great joy, you and Greg both believe in 9/11 truth. Greg needs more reality based guys like your and your no planes. Congratulations Greg, with peers like this you are on the winning team. Go forward and spread your information! (does anyone in 9/11 truth understand a model? Guess not)

You guys between you, have no idea how much the floor can hold and why that is the key. How much weight can the floor hold?
 
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On Apollo20's WTC2 collapse narrative

Given the assumptions, nice narrative.
 
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Heiwa,

We have this paper by you:

Non-animated Visualization Aids to Assist in Understanding the Demolitions of the World Trade Center Twin Towers by Anders Bjorkman (Heiwa)

"This article describes the structure of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and what happens when the release of potential energy, due to downward movement of the mass above one of its supporting columns when buckling, exceeds the strain energy that can be absorbed by the same column below."
Then we have this paper by "Anon" with the same title:

Non-animated Visualization Aids to Assist in Understanding the Demolitions of the World Trade Center Twin Towers. by Anon, November 27, 2007

"Abstract: The volume of jet fuel that remained in each of the World Trade Center Twin Towers after the initial fireballs on September 11, 2001, would fit into a mid-size U-Haul® rental truck."
Are you "Anon", Heiwa?
 
Heiwa:

Consider each WTC tower as being divided (mathematically) into upper and lower sections such that an upper mass Mu acts on a lower mass Ml and the mass of the tower Mt is thus [Mu + Ml]. In a normal, undamaged, tower the load acting on Ml is Mu .g. Then, for example, if we consider the upper mass to be say 50,000 tonnes, the downward-acting force on the top of the lower section is 50,000,000 kg x 9.8 m/s^2 ~ 500 MN. In the Twin Towers this load was shared more or less equally between the core and the perimeter columns.

Let us suppose that, under the compressive load of the upper section, the lower section of a tower acts like a giant spring and obeys Hooke’s Law. This means that the downward displacement, d, of the lower section due to the static weight of the upper section is proportional to the applied compressive force, Fu. This leads to the familiar result:

Fu = Mu. g = k.d,

where k is the stiffness, also called the spring constant, of the lower section of the tower.

Now since Young’s modulus, E, equals stress, s, divided by strain, the downward displacement of the top of the lower section of a tower due to static loading by mass Mu, is given by,

d = L. Mu .g /AE

where L is the length of the lower section and A is the effective cross sectional area of the structural steel.

Representative values of L and A would be 300 meters and 5 m^2, respectively, while E for structural steel is typically ~ 200 GPa. It follows that d is ~ 15 cm and since k is equal to Mu. g / d we have k = 3 GN/m. The elastic energy stored by this compression is (500 x 0.15) MJ or 75 MJ. Now since structural steel has an elastic strain energy capacity of 50 J/kg, the building can handle the weight of the upper section because the resulting strain energy is taken up by a large mass of steel below it. There was, in fact, at least 15,000,000 kg of structural steel available to support a 50,000,000 kg upper section, so we have 75 MJ of elastic strain energy per 15 x 10^6 kg or 5 J/kg which is well below the 50 J/kg elastic capacity of the structural steel.

Now consider what happens if there is a failure of a significant number of columns supporting a 50,000,000 kg upper section of a tower. Prior to such a failure we had a stable building in which the downward-acting force on the lower section was countered by an equal and opposite reaction force on the upper section. If the perimeter wall columns should suddenly fail at the interface between our upper and lower sections, the wall will unload some or all of the reaction force so that the downward-acting force now exceeds the reaction force acting on the upper section. This creates a net accelerating force on the upper section of the tower.

Data reported in NCSTAR 1-6D show that the total perimeter column load at the 83rd floor of WTC 2 was about 250 MN. It follows that after unloading by the perimeter columns at or near this floor, the upper section will move downwards under the action of this force with an acceleration, a, given by:

a = Force /Mass ~ 250 MN/50,000,000 = 5 m/s^2 ~ ½ g

Assuming that the upper section drops one story height or 3.7 meters, the stiffness, k, of the “spring” that held up the lower section of the tower has been reduced from 3 GN/m to 68 MN/m, (250 MN/3.7 m). We also note that the work done by the upper section in collapsing one floor, Wc, is given by:

Wc = Force x Distance = 250 MN x 3.7 m = 925 MJ

Now, since the loss in potential energy is Mu. g. h, we see that the amount of kinetic energy gained by the upper section after falling 3.7 meters is:

K.E. = (Mu. g. h) - Wc = (1813 – 925) MJ = 888 MJ

It follows from the equation K.E. = ½ Mu. v^2, that the upper section would be moving with a velocity v ~ 6 m/s after this 3.7 meter drop. It is interesting to note that Wc is identical to the quantity I have previously called E1 and the calculated value of 925 MJ given above is in good agreement with the range of values proposed for E1.

The real-world situation in the twin towers was, however, a little more complex than the simplified model described above because collapse initiation was actually caused by tipping of the upper section. Thus, considering the case of WTC 2, floor truss sagging and/or failures on the east side of this tower between the 80th and the 84th floors affected the lateral bracing between the core and the exterior of the building and led to an inward bowing of the east perimeter wall as seen in Figure 6-21 of NCSTAR 1-6. This bowing caused a measurable tipping of the upper section of WTC 2 that, according to NIST, had already lowered the east side of the upper section of the building by 30 cm about 15 minutes before total collapse started. The associated loss of potential energy by the upper section at this point in time is easily calculated to be about 75 MJ; this energy was converted into strain energy in the east perimeter wall columns because it created shear stresses in the upper and lower splices of these columns.

Just prior to collapse, the inward bowing of the east wall of WTC 2 was well over 50 cm so that the affected perimeter columns eventually failed in shear at the splice bolts. This created a net downward force on the east side of the upper section of WTC 2 that allowed it to tip 3.3 degrees before striking the floor below. However, at this point in time, ¾ of the perimeter wall at or near the 83rd floor - a wall that supported 50 % of the mass of the upper section of the building - would have been destroyed.

The kinetic energy imparted to the upper section of WTC 2 by this tipping motion was actually rotational kinetic energy, (RKE), and is given (approximately) by the formula:

RKE = 1/6 Mu. h^2. {d(theta)/dt}^2

where h is the height of the upper section and d(theta)/dt is the angular velocity in rads/s. Substituting appropriate values into this equation we find that the rotational kinetic energy imparted to the upper block of WTC 2 during the first second of collapse was at least 350 MJ. This would be more than sufficient to shear off many perimeter columns surrounding the floors immediately below the impact zone and so on all the way down the tower.

Very good. You understand what we are talking about. In my paper I focus only on WTC1, which is of course completely different from WTC2.

And there I show that the top of WTC1 cannot destroy the part below the so called initiation zone, IZ, for many reasons.

You say - and I adapt for WTC1

"Now consider what happens if there is a failure of a significant number of columns supporting a 33 000 000 kg upper section of a tower. Prior to such a failure we had a stable building in which the downward-acting force on the lower section was countered by an equal and opposite reaction force on the upper section. "

This I do. Evidently a significant number of columns are not seen failing at all before the roof starts to drop, but I allow it to happen.

The official cause is that all columns fail simultaneously to release potential energy.

And there will be no collapse. Too little energy to do any big damage just below the initiation zone ... and little energy still available to destroy the complete building below.

If you read my article carefully you should know the importance of time of cause (release of potential energy when all columns fail) and the time of effect (impact and start of global collapse). These times should be established from videos. Nist doesn't bother to make a proper time table. Bad.

Too much unexplained things happen before the time of cause! Nothing should happen above IZ but it happens. Actually the top part is seen disintegrating before the columns at IZ fails = time of cause. This disturbs me a lot.

The time difference between cause and effect should be very short and then there should be a little pause, so to say. The top part should 'bounce' against the structure below. Doesn't happen. Thus no impact!! This is serious.

But again, I see debris flying out of windows before time of cause! Because the wall columns all around are intact.

Too much energy is then released too quickly, so to say. There was no impact. From where then comes the energy? No release of potential energy has started. An explosion? Probably. It looks lite that.

You describe a lot of events, things being unloaded (sic), loads moving around, no explanations given ... and no times.

Come back - we discuss only WTC1 - with a complete time table for what you can see on the videos and how it tallies with the official only cause and only effect. You will see that 100% of what Nist suggests is ... Alice in Wonderland. There anything happens and time ... it goes forward and backwards to suit.

But thanks for your posting. Maybe you should apply for a job with Nist?
 
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Heiwa,

We have this paper by you:

Non-animated Visualization Aids to Assist in Understanding the Demolitions of the World Trade Center Twin Towers by Anders Bjorkman (Heiwa)

Then we have this paper by "Anon" with the same title:

Non-animated Visualization Aids to Assist in Understanding the Demolitions of the World Trade Center Twin Towers. by Anon, November 27, 2007

Are you "Anon", Heiwa?

No - same title of papers only, different authors. Different web sites. No connection. Quite clear actually for the normal reader.
 
heiwa

i am not a structural engineer and even i see your paper is the biggest load of junk i have ever seen posted on this site as a supposed credible paper

no planers are despicable human beings and they are normally low intelligence. you are quite clearly not un-intelligent but you seem to have a medical condition that has warped your reality and overidden your intelligence

please take your sick junk to truther sites and stop spamming threads which had great promise with your fantasy childish rubbish

you are what the truthers would call disinfo

you should apologize to Gregory Urich
 
No - same title of papers only, different authors. Different web sites. No connection. Quite clear actually for the normal reader.

Interesting that you chose the same title.

Why did you remove this quote from your paper this morning and pretend it wasn't there, Heiwa?

"The Towers also survived the initial impacts of planes on 911 due to their redundancy."
Why are you afraid that you had admitted the planes hit the towers in your paper, Heiwa?
 
Heiwa:

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 1 to the south is key to the collapse of this tower too. Unfortunately many of the better known videos of the collapse of WTC 1 are taken from the north and do not reveal the true extent of the tipping. However, there are a few videos out there that show the tipping of the antenna quite nicely. I would say that these videos allow one to estimate that the upper section of WTC 1 had tilted by about 3 degrees just 2 seconds after collapse initiation at which point the upper section had dropped about 12 meters. (Free fall would give 20 meters of drop). So you need to include a dropping motion AND a rotational motion to properly analyse the first few seconds of the collapse of WTC 1. A video that shows the collapse from the north is almost useless in this regard because it obscures the tilting motion which is usually interpreted as a dropping motion.
 
Dave, if you recall, I asked some pretty straightforward questions in the following argument:

Argument #1:


Let's consider the head-on collision after a 12 foot fall of a typical core column, Column 1003, shown below.

column1003.jpg





In the case of the North Tower, Bazant's "upper block" portion of the column will only be the first 5 I-beam sections shown in the diagram above connected end to end.

The largest and strongest 37 column sections shown, connected end to end, constitute the ""lower block".



Now we ram the two parts together.



We know that the large, large majority of core box columns failed at weld connections before suffering any permanent distortion.



Just based on the principle that bigger tends to be stronger, where would you think the first weld breakage would occur just after impact?


Wouldn't the welds in the "upper block" tend to fail first?


And I believe you answered:

your entire approach here is bizarre. You're trying to dispute my assertion that the Bazant model is oversimplified by claiming that the Bazant model is oversimplified. This is what's known as "being in violent agreement".


I am saying that his application of a spring-mass model is a cartoon.

You say "oversimplification" and then you proceed to extract data you claim is useful.



I don't mean to single you out, it's just that you seemed to be able to give fair answers to previous questions.


So I'll assume your answer to my question is that all things being equal, we should expect the uppermost, weakest welds to fail first in the collision.

This, of course, would mean that you would guess that the upper block which is "crushing down" would very quickly lose it's rigidity. The strongest columns in the core of the upper block would split into their component parts and lose their structural rigidity.

Is that correct?
 
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Heiwa:

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 1 to the south is key to the collapse of this tower too. Unfortunately many of the better known videos of the collapse of WTC 1 are taken from the north and do not reveal the true extent of the tipping. However, there are a few videos out there that show the tipping of the antenna quite nicely. I would say that these videos allow one to estimate that the upper section of WTC 1 had tilted by about 3 degrees just 2 seconds after collapse initiation at which point the upper section had dropped about 12 meters. (Free fall would give 20 meters of drop). So you need to include a dropping motion AND a rotational motion to properly analyse the first few seconds of the collapse of WTC 1. A video that shows the collapse from the north is almost useless in this regard because it obscures the tilting motion which is usually interpreted as a dropping motion.

I have just calculated the total potential energy released involved assuming all columns fail simultaneously as per Nist and a vertical drop. If some columns do not fail there is evidently no potential energy released there and there may be some rotation - but I cannot see any big rotation.

The vertical drop should start when all columns in the initiation zone fails, but it does not seem to be the case. The roof drops first - vertically.

However - let's assume that only half the columns on one side fails and the tower tilts. Why would global collapse then occur? The mass above is restrained to drop by the other half of columns.

So the tilting tower impacts on the structure below ... and should still bounce. Only half the energy is released, absorbed as compression and then stopped. Then the other half drops down on the other side, the rest of the energy is released after two seconds and the same thing happens. No collapse. Very good actually to spread out the release of energy over longer time because then the possibility to overload the structure is reduced considerably.

Thanks for pointing out that there is not ONE sudden impact on the structure below but TWO or more, smaller ones separated by 2 or more seconds. Another reason for no global collapse to ensue.
 

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