Respecting Christians

[Legend]

It's more than the general intellectual torpor that is intrinsically linked to blind faith that makes it difficult for me to cultivate respect for Christians. (I single out Christianity, but you can freely substitute that with other Abrahamic religions.) What irks me the most is the particularly sinister fact that a believer can't disagree with the whim or the actions of their god. His divine judgement is flawless and to dissent or disapprove would surely be a sinful act of rebellion.

So, by necessity, Christians tacitly condone my eternal suffering, and, if they're really trying, they should Psalm 58:10 me.

I can get along with a Christian in most instances by settling with the fact that they probably don't wish me perennial perdition, they just haven't thought about it much, have explained it through some ridiculous hermeneutic magic trick, and/or haven't even read the book they should be reading daily. Still, it's an uncomfortable thought, right? Hell for me is justice in their eyes... and maybe a few others'.

Do you find it difficult to respect Christians, and why isn't this point discussed more when the topic of religion pops up or a believer has a seizure at us because he thinks we aren't respecting his beliefs?

 

[A'isha]

What irks me the most is the particularly sinister fact that a believer can't disagree with the whim or the actions of their god. His divine judgement is flawless and to dissent or disapprove would surely be a sinful act of rebellion.

Most people get around this by "discovering" that God's judgment and dictates conveniently coincide with their own.

Do you find it difficult to respect Christians, and why isn't this point discussed more when the topic of religion pops up or a believer has a seizure at us because he thinks we aren't respecting his beliefs?

I personally find it easier to respect Christians (and other believers), even if their beliefs include my own inevitable eternal torment, if they don't bug me about it. People believe weird crap, and even believe insulting crap, but if they aren't vocal and aggressive about it, why should I let it bother me? Do unto others and all that.

The flip side, of course, is that if the believer is one of those that has, as you put it, a seizure at us because he thinks we aren't respecting his beliefs, then he's on his own. Especially if he's posting at JREF to tell us specifically that we're all going to go to hell unless we buy into everything he's saying.

 

[Weak Kitten]

Yeah, I was raised with a basic "live and let live" attitude about religion. The problem is when people try to force their religious beliefs on others. Frankly it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or simply a believer in a different religion, when someone starts shoving their beliefs in your face it is rude.

There is a time and a place for religious discussion and we should respect the beliefs of others by keeping our personal faiths private outside of that time and place.

 

[Jomante]

What about a believer whose concern is about your future and well-being and wants to share that with you? Do you consider that to be "bugging" you?

 

[A'isha]

What about a believer whose concern is about your future and well-being and wants to share that with you? Do you consider that to be "bugging" you?

If they're persistent about it and don't take "I'm perfectly happy with my own beliefs or lack thereof, thank you. Done talking now," for an answer.

Plus, personalizing the discussion bothers me a lot more than religious discussion in general. Last summer, I had a couple months straight of weekly visits from the local Mormon missionaries, and I really relished the opportunity to just ask them direct questions that I had about their beliefs. And to their credit, they were gracious enough to answer all my questions, without ever once trying to pressure me into converting or even questioning me about my own atheism.

 

[Jomante]

If they're persistent about it and don't take "I'm perfectly happy with my own beliefs or lack thereof, thank you. Done talking now," for an answer.

So the follow up question would be: Do you try to convince others that their beliefs are bogus under the same premise that you have a concern about their future and well-being and do you it the same way (that is, if they say that they are perfectly happy with their religious convictions do you stop trying to present proof about why their beliefs are illogical or contradictory)?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Yes, Hell is the appropriate consequence of your rebellion -- and mine, too. We're no different on this point.

I'm not happy about it; neither is God. That's why so much effort has been expended in trying to put you in touch with Him to fix it.

So I'm not sure why you would have a problem respecting me. I'm not judging you any differently than I judge myself, and I'm no more interested in your suffering than in my own.

 

[A'isha]

So the follow up question would be: Do you try to convince others that their beliefs are bogus under the same premise that you have a concern about their future and well-being and do you it the same way (that is, if they say that they are perfectly happy with their religious convictions do you stop trying to present proof about why their beliefs are illogical or contradictory)?

I only ever bring up my own atheism (and the reasons for it) if someone directly asks me, or if they start proselytizing to me and claiming their beliefs are objectively correct. And if they want to end the conversation at any point, I don't press the issue.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly content to let people believe whatever they want, even if I personally know that they're dead wrong.

 

[Jomante]

I only ever bring up my own atheism (and the reasons for it) if someone directly asks me, or if they start proselytizing to me by claiming their beliefs are objectively correct. And if they want to end the conversation, I don't press the issue.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly content to let people believe whatever they want, even if I personally know that they're dead wrong.

Even if their beliefs lead them to irrational behaviors? Take, for instance, those that followed Harold Camping. Some people lost their life savings. You would not attempt to persuade them even if the person said "I'm happy with my personal beliefs"?

 

[Tatyana]

I only ever bring up my own atheism (and the reasons for it) if someone directly asks me, or if they start proselytizing to me and claiming their beliefs are objectively correct. And if they want to end the conversation at any point, I don't press the issue.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly content to let people believe whatever they want, even if I personally know that they're dead wrong.

Christian proselytise far more than any other religion, which I have always found weird and offensive.

I don't think that proselytising is a part of any other religion.

It really does depend on how they go about it, but if they are proselytising to me directly in the street and are quite aggressive about it, I am going to be a bit short with them.

 

[Lowpro]

Eh, go with the Golden Rule for Christians; they're people too. And if they repeatedly condemn you to hell because your standards of evidence are higher than theirs, then pull a Bill Hicks and say "Well then forgive me" and tell them off (ask them to forgive that too)

Golden Rule

Even if their beliefs lead them to irrational behaviors? Take, for instance, those that followed Harold Camping. Some people lost their life savings. You would not attempt to persuade them even if the person said "I'm happy with my personal beliefs"?

No, you call on the mightiest authority of all (whoever your DA is) and lock their asses up.

 

[stilicho]

Christian proselytise far more than any other religion...

More than Vegans?

 

[bookitty]

I have great respect for individual Christians like those in my family, even though I am frustrated by their beliefs.

I have very little respect for Christianity as a whole, or for those people who use Christianity as an excuse to inflict harm. Preachers who say that gays should be rounded up, Catholic institutions which place anti-condom billboards in third-world countries, anti-abortion protestors who stand outside clinics targeting women needing abortions instead of using that time to promote access to birth control, and so forth and so on to infinity.

 

[A'isha]

Even if their beliefs lead them to irrational behaviors? Take, for instance, those that followed Harold Camping. Some people lost their life savings. You would not attempt to persuade them even if the person said "I'm happy with my personal beliefs"?

People are entitled to make their own self-destructive life choices, as long as what they're doing is not illegal or anything like that. If it were a close friend or family member, I'd sit them down and express my concerns (just as I would if I thought they were, say, spending all their money on someone they're in an ostensible relationship with but who obviously doesn't care for them).

But once I make my own thoughts clear to them, if they rebuff me, it's counterproductive to keep pushing. People that dedicated to and intendant on doing things like that are far more likely to shut me out completely if I push them than they are to actually listen to my vehement insistence in the face of repeated rejection.

And I certainly wouldn't go around to strangers who I thought were in bad relationships or whatever and try to warn them away from what they're doing.

EDIT: Or, as bookitty notes, as long as they're not directly harming others.

 

[Beerina]

Christian proselytise far more than any other religion, which I have always found weird and offensive.

I don't think that proselytising is a part of any other religion.

It really does depend on how they go about it, but if they are proselytising to me directly in the street and are quite aggressive about it, I am going to be a bit short with them.

Looked at the mid east lately in the past 1000 years?

"Only" proselytization would be a freakin' awesome change of pace.

This is also why I'm depressed about the west.

We had freedom from religion forced through government, but it has been replaced with the secular religion of government itself.

This secular religion has grown so much the last 100 years it is now effectively like the mid east -- it has done away with proselytization and now just jails opponents as its memeplex now lords over everybody, with detailed prescription on how to live every day life, and growing by several feet thick of Bible-like onionskin a year.

 

[Tatyana]

Looked at the mid east lately in the past 1000 years?

"Only" proselytization would be a freakin' awesome change of pace.

This is also why I'm depressed about the west.

We had freedom from religion forced through government, but it has been replaced with the secular religion of government itself.

This secular religion has grown so much the last 100 years it is now effectively like the mid east -- it has done away with proselytization and now just jails opponents as its memeplex now lords over everybody, with detailed prescription on how to live every day life, and growing by several feet thick of Bible-like onionskin a year.

It appears that the majority of terrorism associated with Islam started in 1980.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

What are you thinking about?

 

[Legend]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. It's too late to respond to all of those that I'd like to respond to, so I'll respond to one and get to the others when it's not 4:00am on a Wednesday.

Yes, Hell is the appropriate consequence of your rebellion -- and mine, too. We're no different on this point.

I'm not happy about it; neither is God. That's why so much effort has been expended in trying to put you in touch with Him to fix it.

So I'm not sure why you would have a problem respecting me. I'm not judging you any differently than I judge myself, and I'm no more interested in your suffering than in my own.

That's a very semantically clever way of dodging the issue. I don't care if you hold the same standards to yourself as you do to me, because I'm not a lad of faith. I've no chance of making it to heaven by any biblically consistent method of judgement, but my endless torture is a just outcome for my atheism under your system of belief. For you to think that is completely repulsive.

And God's put in a really lame amount of effort to "put me in touch with him", but let's just leave that discussion at the door.

 

[Soapy Sam]

It's more than the general intellectual torpor that is intrinsically linked to blind faith that makes it difficult for me to cultivate respect for Christians. (I single out Christianity, but you can freely substitute that with other Abrahamic religions.) What irks me the most is the particularly sinister fact that a believer can't disagree with the whim or the actions of their god. His divine judgement is flawless and to dissent or disapprove would surely be a sinful act of rebellion.

So, by necessity, Christians tacitly condone my eternal suffering, and, if they're really trying, they should Psalm 58:10 me.

I can get along with a Christian in most instances by settling with the fact that they probably don't wish me perennial perdition, they just haven't thought about it much, have explained it through some ridiculous hermeneutic magic trick, and/or haven't even read the book they should be reading daily. Still, it's an uncomfortable thought, right? Hell for me is justice in their eyes... and maybe a few others'.

Do you find it difficult to respect Christians, and why isn't this point discussed more when the topic of religion pops up or a believer has a seizure at us because he thinks we aren't respecting his beliefs?

Well, I find it hard to dislike Christians merely because they condemn an Australian to eternal perdition...

...fortunately, there are lots of better reasons!

 

[Tricky]

Compartmentalize. The vast majority of Christians that I know don't wear their religion on their sleeves. If you don't want to talk about religion, you normally won't have to. Most have many things you can respect them for. Focus on that.

But if the discussion turns to religion, let them know how you feel and agree to disagree. You can still respect a person without respecting all their beliefs. I'd venture to say that there are few people in the world who share all your beliefs.

 

[AvalonXQ]

That's a very semantically clever way of dodging the issue.

Thanks, but I don't feel I've dodged the issue at all -- I addressed it head-on.

I don't care if you hold the same standards to yourself as you do to me, because I'm not a lad of faith. I've no chance of making it to heaven by any biblically consistent method of judgement, but my endless torture is a just outcome for my atheism under your system of belief. For you to think that is completely repulsive.

I don't think that. I don't think anyone's punishment or reward has anything to do with their atheism. It has to do with our sins -- of which I don't claim you're any worse off than me, or anyone else.
In my belief system, I am neither the cause of anyone's punishment nor do I desire that anyone be punished. Again, it's hard for me to see what about this viewpoint is repugnant.

Then again, you don't have any responsibility to give me any respect. I still plan to do my best to treat you with respect, and I hope you'll do the same.