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Resolution of Transporter Problem

You are confusing notional selfhood with the physical existence of the body....still!

Nick

I don't even know what that means.

Has it occured to you that, since I don't seem to think I am implying what you think I am implying, you are the one assuming some kind of dualism?
 
Look, I AM a dualist. I'm looking to understand the materialist position.

Unfortunately, all I see at the moment are two self-claimed materialists, battling over which one is being more dualistic. And Pixy, who I respect and admire, doing his best (her best?) to make some sense out of what Nick's saying.

Frankly, I don't get Nick at all. One moment, he has this nihilistic opinion that sentience doesn't exist; the next, he uses a boatload of dualist language and concepts to try to defend materialism. His interpretations of Ramachandran's work are laughable - and I've just gone over some material of Rama's concerning synesthesia and autism links, so don't claim I've never read Rama - and, while I've never read Dennett, I gather from others who have that his interpretations of DD are flawed as well.

What's funny is, his arguments are nearly the same as arguments several dualists had on a similar thread a year and a half ago, that convinced me that my initial views of materialism were wrong in the first place. It's like he's trying to argue me back into this closet dualist version of materialism!

It's all very confusing - I'm sending my katra out for some tea.
 
Boy are you confused. What rocketdodger is saying is saying is pure materialist behaviourism.
Um... Modern Radical Behaviorism is pragmatist, not materialist, and what rocketdodger is saying is being followed with amusement by at least one behaviorist reader.

I quit posting here after the thread grew 6 pages while I could not post during forum glitches, and do not plan on starting now, but I couldn't let this go.
 
Um... Modern Radical Behaviorism is pragmatist, not materialist, and what rocketdodger is saying is being followed with amusement by at least one behaviorist reader.
Fair enough. I would say, though, that one reduces to the other, based on evidence.
 
Care to bring out some quotes to back that statement up? (he asks, knowing as usual none will be forthcoming!)
Have you read Consciousness Explained? Dennett's debunking of the "Cartesian Theatre", the very thing you keep trying to reconstruct?

a continuous self-identity
? I take it this statement is just the best way you could state it.
Also, I is a continuous self-identity. And I am a continuous self-identity. All three are true.

Uhm, I would say that thinking (that is, as I and dictionaries define this word) is a post-hoc self-referential synthesis of a variety of brain processes.
That's true only for some types of thinking. A lot of thinking isn't self-referential at all.

Pixy, you've said it on several occasions.
Nope.

I recall one of our first dialogues when you came out with it, sometime around autumn 06.
Nope. I've said that a sentence could be self-referential - the expression of a thought process. A thought can perhaps be self-referential; a stream of thoughts, certainly. But a thought is not aware of anything, and I have never suggested anything of the sort. Awareness is made up of thoughts.

And, if I recall, you went there again, or very nearby, in some discussion about gerunds a few months back.
The discussion of gerunds was a lot more recent.

Amazing the stuff the brain remembers!
Things that never happened, for starters.
 
Frankly, I don't get Nick at all. One moment, he has this nihilistic opinion that sentience doesn't exist; the next, he uses a boatload of dualist language and concepts to try to defend materialism. His interpretations of Ramachandran's work are laughable - and I've just gone over some material of Rama's concerning synesthesia and autism links, so don't claim I've never read Rama - and, while I've never read Dennett, I gather from others who have that his interpretations of DD are flawed as well.
He's fallen into the same trap as Chalmers and Searle and Berkeley which is to take dualist concepts and import them, unexamined, into a materialist debate.

The reason I call Chalmers and Searle idiots is that this was pointed out to them something like twenty years ago, and they are still arguing the same way.
 
Um... Modern Radical Behaviorism is pragmatist, not materialist, and what rocketdodger is saying is being followed with amusement by at least one behaviorist reader.

I quit posting here after the thread grew 6 pages while I could not post during forum glitches, and do not plan on starting now, but I couldn't let this go.

I know I am not a behaviorist. Pixy was referring to only a few posts of mine in response to Nick, not my general worldview.
 
Unfortunately, all I see at the moment are two self-claimed materialists, battling over which one is being more dualistic.

I am just someone whose career is making non-human data processing act like human data processing.

The extent of my "battles" with Nick amounts to little more than me trying to explain to him that when I make a statement regarding data processing I might mean something different than what he thinks Joe the Plumber would mean.
 
The reason I call Chalmers and Searle idiots is that this was pointed out to them something like twenty years ago, and they are still arguing the same way.

I don't know much about them other than that I am sure I wouldn't learn anything useful from their work.
 
I know I am not a behaviorist. Pixy was referring to only a few posts of mine in response to Nick, not my general worldview.
Right, just this little sub-discussion with Nick, not the broader topic, where I'm not taking a strict behaviourist view either.
 
That is not logically equivalent.

What is logically equivalent is to say that Fairies are real in the form of patterns of neuron excitation within the brain of someone thinking of them.

That is all Pixy is saying -- that the illusion of self exists as a real entity in the form of whatever is the substrate of the data processing. In this case, patterns of neural firing.

Your example is not logically equivalent. You do not see an "I." There is no neural pattern, as you put it. There are referent terms "I" or "my" but that's it.

Nick
 
Frankly, I don't get Nick at all. One moment, he has this nihilistic opinion that sentience doesn't exist; the next, he uses a boatload of dualist language and concepts to try to defend materialism. His interpretations of Ramachandran's work are laughable

Please quote and cite here. And please actually do it, as opposed to what I usually get - another wannabe materialist retard with an utterly superficial grasp of the real issues - making sub-Daily Star assertions.

Quote and Cite. Do it. And then we look. Otherwise go away and talk nonsense somewhere else.

Nick
 
I don't know much about them other than that I am sure I wouldn't learn anything useful from their work.
David Chalmers is the "hard problem consciousness" guy. He asserts that experience cannot be explained by any physical process. He bases this on his misconception that "p-zombies" are conceivable, and must therefore be logically possible.

A p-zombie is a creature that acts in all ways like a human being, but does not have experiences - so-called "qualia". Under materialism, and even more so under strict behaviourism, this is an incoherent notion. All of Chalmers work amounts to: If we assume that dualism is true, we can show that materialism is false.

Not much of an accomplishment, really.

John Searle is the bloke who came up with the (in)famous Chinese Room, which I see as a good test for Introductory Philosophy students. If at the end of the semester you can't take Searle's argument apart inside of ten minutes, you fail.

The Chinese Room is a room containing a man and a whole lot of books. Also a pen and a stack of paper.

Slips of paper with symbols on them come through a slot in the wall. Following step-by-step instructions in the books, the man writes another set of symbols on a piece of paper and pushes it back out through the slot.

Now Searle tells us what's going on. The symbols are written Chinese. The slips of paper coming in are questions. The slips of paper going out are answers. The books contain a set of rules allowing you to transform any arbitrary question in Chinese into an appropriate answer, without knowing any Chinese yourself.

The man in the room knows no Chinese. The books are just books. Yet to an outside observer, the room appears to understand Chinesse.

Searle argues that since there is no part of the system that understands Chinese, the system cannot understand Chinese, and therefore artificial intelligence is impossible. Never mind that this is clearly the fallacy of composition; never mind that the exact same applies to human beings; never mind that this search for a seat of consciousness is straight out of dualism.

Never mind that the system does understand Chinese.

It's particularly ironic that Searle accuses others of dualism: "strong AI only makes sense given the dualistic assumption that, where the mind is concerned, the brain doesn't matter". That's not dualism at all; that's behaviourism.

To round things out, we can take a look at Mary's Room, posited by Frank Jackson. Jackson has us imagine a scientist named Mary, who knows everything there is to know about the physical properties and processes and perception of colour, but who has lived her entire life locked in a room that is entirely black and white, and so has never experience colour herself.

One day Mary awakens to see a red rose in the middle of her room. Does she learn anything new about colour?

Jackson argues that she does: She has, for the first time, experience colour herself, something she knew nothing about. Daniel Dennett argues that Jackson is a pillock; the premise is that Mary knows all there is to know about the physical perception of colour, and that by definition includes what it is like to experience the colour of a red rose.

Dennett is right, of course; Jackson has hauled qualia into the argument, and as soon as someone starts talking about qualia, you know you can safely ignore everything they have to say. Qualia are, by definition, what is left over when you have taken away everything physical from a mental state or process. Since mental processes (and states) are entirely physical, qualia do not exist.

Jackson thinks he has disproved physicalism by this thought experiment, just as Berkeley did in his day. He is no more right than Berkeley, of course, and has far less excuse.
 
Have you read Consciousness Explained? Dennett's debunking of the "Cartesian Theatre", the very thing you keep trying to reconstruct?

I've read it and have a copy. Now please dig up some quotes that back up your previous statement...

"You don't appear to understand Dennett at all, because what I am saying is almost exactly what he is saying."

...let's take a look together. I mean, Dennett is from the "benign user illusion" camp (as opposed to say, Blackmore, who takes a darker perspective on the narrative self) so on the surface of it, it shouldn't be too hard a task. Let's see.



The discussion of gerunds was a lot more recent.


Things that never happened, for starters.

OK, you're positive that you've never said "the thoughts are aware of themselves." I recall different. I'll try and look it back in the archive.

Nick
 
He's fallen into the same trap as Chalmers and Searle and Berkeley which is to take dualist concepts and import them, unexamined, into a materialist debate.

Actually, the main concept I'm importing is reductionism. I think you'll find it's considered quite a valid tool in most materialist circles. Your rather haphazard systemic perspective seems to adjust itself, if I may so, according to whatever problems it faces - the apparent bottom line being "we understand it all already!"

The reason I call Chalmers and Searle idiots is that this was pointed out to them something like twenty years ago, and they are still arguing the same way.

That's because, ho hum, there are actually complexities here. Consciousness simply is not understood as a phenomenom. There are some very basic theoretical models and some neural correlates but that's it. We're nowhere near having a grand model for conscious experience, and actually if you read, you'll find no serious researcher disputes this (to the best of my knowledge).

Bernard Baars "global workspace theory" for example, is likely one of the best accepted general models. But, as he readily admits, it doesn't deal with the hard problem (subjectivity) and his estimate is that it's going to take another 100 years before we can say much for certain.

In reality, you and RocDod are pretty much on your own in claiming that consciousness is well understood. Please, just quote me another bona fide, well-recognised researcher who's making a statement like this.

Nick
 
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David Chalmers is the "hard problem consciousness" guy. He asserts that experience cannot be explained by any physical process. He bases this on his misconception that "p-zombies" are conceivable, and must therefore be logically possible.

A p-zombie is a creature that acts in all ways like a human being, but does not have experiences - so-called "qualia". Under materialism, and even more so under strict behaviourism, this is an incoherent notion. All of Chalmers work amounts to: If we assume that dualism is true, we can show that materialism is false.

Not much of an accomplishment, really.

As I understand it, Chalmers basically identified Subjectivity as being the "hard problem." And the reality is that, whilst Strong AI theorists like Dennett can appear to overcome the issue of subjectivity at a theoretical level, no one has really done so on a practical level. Dennett, by his own admission, doesn't "do neurons."

I mean, personally, I don't agree with Chalmers or Searle, from what I understand of their writings. But I think you have to appreciate that until real practical modelling is demonstrated to work it's very hasty to be piling on the ridicule.

Nick
 
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As I understand it, Chalmers basically identified Subjectivity as being the "hard problem."
No, it's more than that. Chalmers says you cannot explain subjective experience within a physicalist framework. It's supposedly the hard problem because - says Chalmers - it cannot be answered.

Of course, the only reason Chalmers came to that conclusion is that he assumes a dualistic version of experience - for which he presents no evidence whatsoever.

And the reality is that, whilst Strong AI theorists like Dennett can appear to overcome the issue of subjectivity at a theoretical level, no one has really done so on a practical level.
Subjective experience is trivially easy to demonstrate. Thermostats are a common example. You seem to appreciate Dennett, so why do you think he is wrong there?

Dennett, by his own admission, doesn't "do neurons."
He does thermostats, though.

I mean, personally, I don't agree with Chalmers or Searle, from what I understand of their writings. But I think you have to appreciate that until real practical modelling is demonstrated to work it's very hasty to be piling on the ridicule.
No. They (and Jackson) are committing very basic and obvious logical fallacies. The are professors of philosophy, and they are committing blunders that would embarrass a freshman student. The ridicule is fully earned.
 
To round things out, we can take a look at Mary's Room, posited by Frank Jackson. Jackson has us imagine a scientist named Mary, who knows everything there is to know about the physical properties and processes and perception of colour, but who has lived her entire life locked in a room that is entirely black and white, and so has never experience colour herself.

One day Mary awakens to see a red rose in the middle of her room. Does she learn anything new about colour?

Jackson argues that she does: She has, for the first time, experience colour herself, something she knew nothing about. Daniel Dennett argues that Jackson is a pillock;

I don't recall Dennett being abusive.


the premise is that Mary knows all there is to know about the physical perception of colour, and that by definition includes what it is like to experience the colour of a red rose.

Actually, IIRC, what Dennett said was that, by definition, Mary must know her "reactive dispositions" to the colour red. This is subtly more informative than your wording.

Dennett is right, of course; Jackson has hauled qualia into the argument,

Well, the whole argument is about qualia, so it would pretty weird if they weren't in there!

and as soon as someone starts talking about qualia, you know you can safely ignore everything they have to say.

This says a great deal about your own reactive dispositions.

Qualia are, by definition, what is left over when you have taken away everything physical from a mental state or process. Since mental processes (and states) are entirely physical, qualia do not exist.

This argument resembles that of religious fundamentalists to me, Pixy. I find it closed-minded to the point of ridiculousness. For a start qualia are usually defined as the subjective components of experience, the redness of red etc, not what's left over when you take everything physical out. You might construct the latter from the former but to then use this argument to refute their existence is a trick more used by extreme muslim clerics or other religious loonies.

The qualia refutation which I personally subscribe to is to state that subjectivity simply is data processing, and that there is no actual observer or experiencer, merely the appearance of the same. However this is still just a theoretical position, as far as I'm aware.

Nick
 
Actually, the main concept I'm importing is reductionism.
You're importing the fallacy of composition is what you're doing.

I think you'll find it's considered quite a valid tool in most materialist circles. Your rather haphazard systemic perspective seems to adjust itself, if I may so, according to whatever problems it faces - the apparent bottom line being "we understand it all already!"
We do understand consciousness. I build conscious systems on a regular basis. It's not even particularly difficult.

That's because, ho hum, there are actually complexities here.
In Searle's or Chalmers' or Jackson's thought experiments? No, there aren't. They're just wrong.

Consciousness simply is not understood as a phenomenom. There are some very basic theoretical models and some neural correlates but that's it.
You're confused.

We're nowhere near having a grand model for conscious experience, and actually if you read, you'll find no serious researcher disputes this (to the best of my knowledge).
So what? We know what conscious experience is, and Searle and Chalmers and Jackson are talking out their respective behinds.

Bernard Baars "global workspace theory" for example, is likely one of the best accepted general models. But, as he readily admits, it doesn't deal with the hard problem (subjectivity) and his estimate is that it's going to take another 100 years before we can say much for certain.
There is no hard problem.

In reality, you and RocDod are pretty much on your own in claiming that consciousness is well understood.
What consciousness? Consciousness in general? Sure. That's easy.

Human consciousness? No, that's really complicated. But it's not the consciousness part that's complex, it's the human part.

Please, just quote me another bona fide, well-recognised researcher who's making a statement like this.
Dennett. What was the title of that book again?
 
No, it's more than that. Chalmers says you cannot explain subjective experience within a physicalist framework. It's supposedly the hard problem because - says Chalmers - it cannot be answered.

What I recall from my reading is that Chalmers coined the term "hard problem," at a Tucson consciousness conference, to contrast certain problems with others. Yes, he maintained that it would remain after the "easy problems" had been solved, but I don't recall him saying it could never be answered, though it's possible he did. If this is what he meant wouldn't he call it the "impossible problem" or something similar?

Of course, the only reason Chalmers came to that conclusion is that he assumes a dualistic version of experience - for which he presents no evidence whatsoever.

It does however intuitively appear to be dualistic, to most humans anyway. There do seem to be clearly defined subjects and objects.

Subjective experience is trivially easy to demonstrate. Thermostats are a common example. You seem to appreciate Dennett, so why do you think he is wrong there?

So how would you demonstrate that a thermostat is having a subjective experience? Dennett's assertion is based around his model for conscious experience. I don't recall him actually demonstrating it to be true.


No. They (and Jackson) are committing very basic and obvious logical fallacies. The are professors of philosophy, and they are committing blunders that would embarrass a freshman student. The ridicule is fully earned.

I don't know that anyone really "earns ridicule." I think it is more that those who have a need to administer it seek out suitable subjects.

Nick
 

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