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Request for Help with Experiment

I would suggest you try to build a small, round cage like you see on the state lottery games.

Good luck, young man and tip of the hat you. You are a very enterprising guy.:)

What about a dice tower?

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(Shameless brag: I made this for my husband, as part of his anniversary present...the tower, not the chocolates :))
 
Complexmelody, if you have the time to do it, you should definitely make the people roll the dice 25 times. While only making them do it 10 times would be easier or faster, the more times you make them roll it, the less chance they have of getting lucky. Later in life, you'll learn about statistics, and how sample size affects outcomes. Definitely go with 25 if you can!
 
The statistical test you want is chi-squared. Any text book on statistics for psychology should contain it. I'll try to post a reference later - I'm not in my office (sorry "playpen") at the moment.

One standard textbook on this is: Siegal; Nonparametric Statistics for the Behavioral Sciences, published by McGraw-Hill.

There is a second edition by Siegal and Castellan with the same title. The original was my bible as a student and subsequently as a professional psychologist.

Where you have two independent samples - as in your case of "believers" versus "non-believers" it can also be used, as can the Fisher Exact test - but this latter is so complex for anything other than a 2 by 2 table that it's not worth considering.
 
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Complexmelody, I'm interested in your test. Financial reward is very important but maybe you could raise the amount a little? Where and when will the test take place? Can anyone take your test? And most importantly, please post a photo of the dice you are going to use preferably with a complete history of where you got the dice. I recommend the red dice from a circa 1978 Risk game (I'm lazy and already have a skewed to 6 set of those ;) )
 
1. I would roll the dice yourself, in a cup. Don't let them roll it.

2. Tell them that they can use any means they think will influence the dice.

3. Make sure your "control group" is a bunch of people who do not consciously influence the dice. You could even do this yourself if you wanted to, or calculate it mathematically.

Good luck on your project!
 
2. Tell them that they can use any means they think will influence the dice.
I would be more explicit in adding limitations. I'm not joking when I say I would fear someone grabbing the cup out of your hand if you don't put limits on what they can do.
 
I would be more explicit in adding limitations. I'm not joking when I say I would fear someone grabbing the cup out of your hand if you don't put limits on what they can do.

True, true. So I guess it should read "They can use any nonphysical means that they think will influence the dice."
 
1. I would roll the dice yourself, in a cup. Don't let them roll it.

2. Tell them that they can use any means they think will influence the dice.

3. Make sure your "control group" is a bunch of people who do not consciously influence the dice. You could even do this yourself if you wanted to, or calculate it mathematically.

This is silly. Rolling your own dice gives you skin in the game. If a person can't roll their own dice what difference do they have in the game than the person standing next to them. Maybe a powerful woo (er dice controlling psychic) in the crowd is insuring random distribution of the rolls. Vegas is just lucky these types of psychics don't believe in gambling or dice games would have to close.

True story: I was in Aruba playing craps and emptied a late night (meaning minimum bet has been raised high) crap table by rolling craps 3 times in a row. Even I left the table and the people working tried to stop me saying I had to keep rolling but didn't have to bet. I declined knowing I lost a lot of people enough money already.
 
This is silly. Rolling your own dice gives you skin in the game. If a person can't roll their own dice what difference do they have in the game than the person standing next to them. Maybe a powerful woo (er dice controlling psychic) in the crowd is insuring random distribution of the rolls. Vegas is just lucky these types of psychics don't believe in gambling or dice games would have to close.

True story: I was in Aruba playing craps and emptied a late night (meaning minimum bet has been raised high) crap table by rolling craps 3 times in a row. Even I left the table and the people working tried to stop me saying I had to keep rolling but didn't have to bet. I declined knowing I lost a lot of people enough money already.

Maybe it should be calculated mathematically then. No dice rolling involved.
 
What about a dice tower?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=398&pictureid=4101[/qimg]
(Shameless brag: I made this for my husband, as part of his anniversary present...the tower, not the chocolates :))

I want one of those. I play Monopoly with a friend that wins an inordinate amount of the time. I suspect him of cheating by controlling the rolls.
 
First, at a fundamental level if you are trying to detect the influence of the mind on the dice, you have to exclude the influence of the person. Therefore, they shouldn't roll the dice because that's the body influencing the dice. Honestly, I don't think it will matter in the results, but the principle is sound. I mean, how many people believed Uri Geller could bend a spoon with his mind even though he had the damned thing in his hand when he did it?

Second, this Probability Calculator is your friend. For the probability of success (using one die, which I recommend), use 1/6 or 0.1666. For the number of trials, use 25 (as you suggested). You only need 11 successes to get to them past the 1 in 1,000 chance level.

Now, if you really want to be cool, you can do something that lots of psi researchers don't do. Take the top N performers (just a few) and the worst N performers (negative psi). Have them repeat the experiment. You can demonstrate regression toward the mean.
 
First, at a fundamental level if you are trying to detect the influence of the mind on the dice, you have to exclude the influence of the person.

First, at a fundamental level, this is a sixth grade project that needs audience participation. Engaging them to roll the dice may make or break this thing.

You haven't been to one of these have you?
 
First, at a fundamental level, this is a sixth grade project that needs audience participation. Engaging them to roll the dice may make or break this thing.

You haven't been to one of these have you?

Yes, I have. My ex-taught 4th and 5th grade for years, and I went to all the major events. I also coached little league sports for that age group. I guess I give them more credit than you do and don't believe that they are so immature as to render the experiment unworkable because they are not allowed to touch the dice.
 
Yes, I have. My ex-taught 4th and 5th grade for years, and I went to all the major events. I also coached little league sports for that age group. I guess I give them more credit than you do and don't believe that they are so immature as to render the experiment unworkable because they are not allowed to touch the dice.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Despite your gifted ex, the audience throwing the dice is best.
 
We will have to agree to disagree.

Despite your gifted ex, the audience throwing the dice is best.
Gifted ex? Who said she was gifted? Seems like you're getting a little personal..

Allowing the person to roll the die does not isolate the mind, which is the goal of the experiment. In my experience they are graded on the quality of the experiment, which is not dependent on its entertainment value to 12 year olds.

If you think this is such a major factor, why don't you offer some suggestions to make the experiment more "fun" while also being more scientifically valid? Somebody already suggested the dice castle. He could also allow the subjects to pick which die they want to use. In fact, he could as part of his experiment roll several dice a number of times and track their statistics. He could then allow people to choose which one to use based on the frequency of the numbers during is pre-experiment trials.
 
Yes, I have. My ex-taught 4th and 5th grade for years, and I went to all the major events. I also coached little league sports for that age group. I guess I give them more credit than you do and don't believe that they are so immature as to render the experient unworkable because they are not allowed to touch the dice.

OK, let's focus on the dice and the young woman who started the thread.

UncaYimmy is like a dog with a bone. Just keep your distance. We can still discuss this. Let the parent roll the die.
 
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Hiho all, complexmelody's dad here, dropping in with an update on my daughter's project.

Thanks for the welcome you gave my daughter to the forum and the encouragement and advice you gave her for her project. It really got her thinking about a number of issues associated with refining her ideas and designing her experiment, as I had hoped when I suggested that she post here. As a result she came up with a design that considered a number of elements that I don't think she had put much thought into previously, such as:
-Formulating a rigorous problem statement
-Developing a specific, measurable hypothesis
-The purpose of a control group
-Appropriate sample size
-Design that provided a consistent test each time
-What kind of conclusions she could legitimately draw from the data.

She started formulating the idea a few months ago when we were listening to Brian Dunning's Skeptoid podcast discussion about Emily Rosa's experiments with Therapeutic Touch. She has long been interested in science (and is a big fan of the Mythbusters show,) reads the Junior Skeptic, and describes herself as a skeptic. But Rosa's story inspired her to attempt some sort of paranormal research project of her own. We brainstormed a bunch of ideas and telekinesis with dice seemed a good subject to bite off for her upcoming science fair.

As a number of you pointed out, the overall objectives here were not to undertake any groundbreaking original scholarly research. She's in Middle School. The goal was to come up with a fun, original problem statement, develop a hypothesis, design an experiment to test the hypothesis, analyze the data, and draw whatever appropriate conclusions could be drawn. Her target test audience were children her own age, for whom cash or other prizes would definitely be a better incentive than the "fame" associated with performing some paranormal trick. Besides, she was more interested in the aggregate data - overall, how well did people with an incentive to roll sixes perform over pure chance? - than in any one or two outstanding performances that would indicate some sort of special gift. Of course they had to throw the dice themselves.

The design she settled on was this. She read a script to each of 42 test subjects to assure it was consistently explained. They would roll 4 dice in a cup six times. She would total up the number of sixes they rolled, and for each six, her subject would get either a Starburst or Hershey's Kiss (their choice.) If they rolled ten or more sixes they would get a $5 iTunes gift card. If they rolled 20 or more sixes, they would get a $20 iTunes gift card. (The idea of giving cash was nixed pretty quickly by her science teacher, who already had some fears of backlash about letting her play dice games in school - the idea of cash prizes just made it more morally objectionable to some of the powers that be. Besides, my daughter thought that the prizes she offered were a greater incentive than cash anyway.)

The challenging part for me was to help her model a "pure chance" result as a basis for comparing her experimental data. We couldn't use any advanced statistics that was beyond her abilities. We couldn't, then, use terms like "confidence level," "variance," or "standard deviation." I did teach her about the concept of a normal distribution and outliers, and the general notion of regression toward the mean as a way of explaning the importance of sufficient sample sizes. It was hard for me to refrain from taking over and crunching all the data myself and tell her whether or not the null hypothesis should or shouldn't hold, but it was more important for me to give her a way to look at the data and determine if there was anything interesting or unusual about it as the basis for her conclusions, and the groundbreaking proofs of anything would have to wait until she was better at statistics.

So I developed an Excel-based model with the computer randomly generating dice rolls in the exact pattern of her human experiment. We ran three sets of 42 trials and created frequency histograms of each, and compared it to that of her experimental data.

Interestingly, the mode of her data set (more people got five sixes than any other number) was generally higher than the modes in the computer generated models (three, four and five). Also in her experiment, one lucky girl rolled nine sixes out of 24 (fortunately one short of my having to cough up the $5 for an iTunes gift card :)) and nobody got zero sixes, where in the computer results we had a couple of zeros, and the highest number of sixes was eight.

Even though we didn't go into any high-school level math, the idea of comparing the frequency of events between one case and another was rather abstract. At times I wonder if she really grasped it. I suppose we will find out if the judges ask her what it all means. But she had a lot of fun (I think) working on it, and wrote it all up and laid it out on the project board last night for submission today.

 
Hiho all, complexmelody's dad here, dropping in with an update on my daughter's project.

Thanks for the welcome you gave my daughter to the forum and the encouragement and advice you gave her for her project.

I, for one, am happy that we as a group (?) have helped your daughter. This is not a simple problem, and if we have got her to think, we have achieved a great deal. My day job is supporting refugee students in a range of subjects - from the three sciences to English: it would be nice if this kind of problem were raised there!
 
Hi. I am new to this forum. My father has been a member here for a few years and suggested I get input on an experimental design I am working on.

I am in 6th grade and I'm working on a science fair project. My idea for the project is, Can You Control the Roll of Dice with your Mind?.
Is there any way I could make this experiment more accurate or fair? How many people for each group do you think I need to test? Thanks for any ideas that you have!
This is a problematic problem.

Hiho all, complexmelody's dad here, dropping in with an update on my daughter's project.

Thanks for the welcome you gave my daughter to the forum and the encouragement and advice you gave her for her project.

Unlike gambling where people can lose money as well as win I think your wishful thinking numbers are skewed :rolleyes:
 

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