Remind me in which election everyone voted for this

[Sam.I.Am]

Apologies, I was confusing you with Sam.I.Am whose view does seem to be that the poor basically deserve it.

Not deserve it and it's not a race issue either as you said (I never said or even implied the race of poor people because they come in all colors).

What I "basically" said is that most of the poor people who can't seem to break the cycle get stuck where they are by their own bad decisions. Sometimes those bad decisions were made years before. From a criminal history to not applying themselves in school. Those two things alone will make the trip out of the (as you put it) "Black hole of Calcutta" much harder and it's all on them when that happens.

There are plenty of people who grew up in the exact same neighborhoods and went to the exact same public schools that DID get out. They kept their noses clean and paid attention in school and did their homework assignments, that went on to colleges or universities or even trade schools (many educational institutions have set aside scholarships and grants specifically for low income people with good grades) and gained even more education that they could apply to getting good paying jobs. That's how you get out of the hole.

The thing is that you must always keep your eye on the prize and not get caught up in the things that will tie you down inside that hole. That takes a bit of self control and willpower. No drinking or drugs (two really big money sucking things to stay away from), no cable (get an antenna for free broadcast signals and maybe a Netflix account to rent DVD's or whatever), no latest and greatest gaming console on a 40" TV, no smart phone with a data plan (get a prepaid phone or the most basic cell service that you can find) and so on. Those are smart decisions.

Go get a job, even a crap one. It gets you (and keeps you) in the habit of getting up in the morning and going to work. Don't have a job? Treat looking for one like a job. Make it a 9 to 5 daily search. Anyone who is willing to work no matter what the job may be will get a job pretty quickly. Even if the job is just a stepping stone while you look for something better it's still money and it helps give one a sense of purpose on a day to day basis. That's a good decision.

Don't make babies that you can't afford and that will keep you from going out and working or getting an education because child care costs too much. That's a good decision.

There are plenty of other things big and small that someone can do to get out of the hole. From making your own meals, including bread (dirt simple to do for pennies a slice instead of a dime or more a slice) to either getting a beat up car just for transportation to your job (or, if public transportation is available most of those have monthly passes that cost far less than the regular fares do if you use it almost daily).

So if they CHOOSE to not do these types of things then yes, they do deserve it. Bad decisions usually have bad outcomes. People with the intestinal fortitude to stick to a good plan can get out of that hole. There are no shortcuts for the vast majority of people so it's up to them to force a change in their lot in life.

If you think of every little bump or hiccup that life throws at you as a roadblock without looking for a way past it then that's your fault. It really is that simple.

Finally. You are the one who brought up race, not me. I never said nor impiled anything about race because race isn't the problem. Cultures, attitudes and peer pressure are the problems. If having a black president from a single parent home doesn't prove this then nothing ever will in the eyes of people like you.

 

[twinstead]

I know for a fact that there is a percentage of people who do ALL of that, yet still don't succeed

 

[theprestige]

I know for a fact that there is a percentage of people who do ALL of that, yet still don't succeed

What's the percentage?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I know for a fact that there is a percentage of people who do ALL of that, yet still don't succeed

I did qualify that with a "Most people" statement right at the beginning. If they are still stuck in the hole then maybe it's time to move somewhere else and start off fresh. I've done it. A cold move to a new city or state with nothing lined up other than a few promises made over the phone and\or email. Is it a bit scary? I'd say yes but I was getting priced out of where I used to live (San Francisco) so I moved to Las Vegas where I went from living paycheck to paycheck to being able to sock away money just because the cost of living was lower.

I've done this more than once and as long as you're willing to work and apply yourself you can improve your life instead of letting it stagnate in a dead end location.

 

[anglolawyer]

Not deserve it and it's not a race issue either as you said (I never said or even implied the race of poor people because they come in all colors).

What I "basically" said is that most of the poor people who can't seem to break the cycle get stuck where they are by their own bad decisions. Sometimes those bad decisions were made years before. From a criminal history to not applying themselves in school. Those two things alone will make the trip out of the (as you put it) "Black hole of Calcutta" much harder and it's all on them when that happens.

There are plenty of people who grew up in the exact same neighborhoods and went to the exact same public schools that DID get out. They kept their noses clean and paid attention in school and did their homework assignments, that went on to colleges or universities or even trade schools (many educational institutions have set aside scholarships and grants specifically for low income people with good grades) and gained even more education that they could apply to getting good paying jobs. That's how you get out of the hole.

The thing is that you must always keep your eye on the prize and not get caught up in the things that will tie you down inside that hole. That takes a bit of self control and willpower. No drinking or drugs (two really big money sucking things to stay away from), no cable (get an antenna for free broadcast signals and maybe a Netflix account to rent DVD's or whatever), no latest and greatest gaming console on a 40" TV, no smart phone with a data plan (get a prepaid phone or the most basic cell service that you can find) and so on. Those are smart decisions.

Go get a job, even a crap one. It gets you (and keeps you) in the habit of getting up in the morning and going to work. Don't have a job? Treat looking for one like a job. Make it a 9 to 5 daily search. Anyone who is willing to work no matter what the job may be will get a job pretty quickly. Even if the job is just a stepping stone while you look for something better it's still money and it helps give one a sense of purpose on a day to day basis. That's a good decision.

Don't make babies that you can't afford and that will keep you from going out and working or getting an education because child care costs too much. That's a good decision.

There are plenty of other things big and small that someone can do to get out of the hole. From making your own meals, including bread (dirt simple to do for pennies a slice instead of a dime or more a slice) to either getting a beat up car just for transportation to your job (or, if public transportation is available most of those have monthly passes that cost far less than the regular fares do if you use it almost daily).

So if they CHOOSE to not do these types of things then yes, they do deserve it. Bad decisions usually have bad outcomes. People with the intestinal fortitude to stick to a good plan can get out of that hole. There are no shortcuts for the vast majority of people so it's up to them to force a change in their lot in life.

If you think of every little bump or hiccup that life throws at you as a roadblock without looking for a way past it then that's your fault. It really is that simple.

Finally. You are the one who brought up race, not me. I never said nor impiled anything about race because race isn't the problem. Cultures, attitudes and peer pressure are the problems. If having a black president from a single parent home doesn't prove this then nothing ever will in the eyes of people like you.

I conflated two posts from different posters and thought you were saying something you weren't. Apologies. Even so, you are saying that poverty is the fault of the poor since they have choices they don't elect to take and the fact is, since we are talking about the US, black people are over-represented among the poor and under-represented in the middle class and social elites.

Now, how do you explain these facts, given your view that poor people choose to be poor by not doing things that would help them escape poverty? Why would black people be worse at making positive decisions than whites? By the way, Hispanics also seem to come out worse than whites too, but not quite so much. Either they are inferior beings, inherently unsuited to life in a modern, western economy, or there are social, political and economic factors that work to their disadvantage and if that's the case then poverty cannot be looked at as entirely or mostly the fault of the poor.

I am an under-achiever, due to being a lazy so and so. I could have worked and studied harder. I could have driven myself to be some kind of big cheese somewhere by getting up earlier, eating more healthily or whatever. The consequence for me of not making the best possible choices (AKA living like the average Joe) is that I'm not as rich, famous or powerful as I might have been but even so, I have done OK. The consequence for a less favoured person, for whom the effort required to advance in life is much greater, is more profound.

At what age are these poor people of yours acquiring the wisdom and insight sufficiently to get their act together enough to make a difference? They are mostly born into a sea of poverty (I know the ranks are swelled by the downwardly mobile). Their normal world of family, friends, authority is what they see around them. When do you think they should be reaching awareness of the advantages of getting their homework done? What's your prescription for the averagely and less bright ones? Maybe living in rust belt cities or depressed areas where there aren't enough jobs? Try harder or go to the wall?

For most people, just going with the flow, society will organise their outcomes for them, good or ill. Of course there is room for individuals to influence their own fate but experience suggests that few have what it takes to climb out of the hole by their own bootstraps.

And isn't there a funny contradiction in the capitalist position? People, they maintain, require incentive if they are to be economically most productive yet here are all these lazy, blameworthy poor people resolutely refusing to be incentivised. How come?

 

[xjx388]

I know for a fact that there is a percentage of people who do ALL of that, yet still don't succeed

So let's quantify: Out of all the people who avoid drugs, get an education, live within their means, etc, what percentage would you estimate don't succeed? I can imagine that some small percentage of these hard workers (maybe 1%?) don't succeed. Some percentage of these "failures" fail for a variety of legitimate reasons -mental illness, they get a serious illness that stops them from working, etc. But I imagine that an even larger percentage of the "failures" don't succeed because of some choice or other that they make.

To illustrate: I have a cousin who went to an Ivy League school on a full paid scholarship and got a degree in communications. She was a broadcaster in small local markets and was invited to apply in a large market. She turned the offer down because she didn't want to leave her boyfriend. Very soon after that, she left broadcasting entirely and is now trying to operate a business totally unrelated to broadcasting and communications. She isn't doing so well, even though she works hard. And she broke up with the boyfriend to boot! I don't understand her choices. She had every opportunity for success but didn't take it. That's her right as a free person in a free society.

 

[xjx388]

I conflated two posts from different posters and thought you were saying something you weren't. Apologies. Even so, you are saying that poverty is the fault of the poor since they have choices they don't elect to take and the fact is, since we are talking about the US, black people are over-represented among the poor and under-represented in the middle class and social elites.

Now, how do you explain these facts, given your view that poor people choose to be poor by not doing things that would help them escape poverty? Why would black people be worse at making positive decisions than whites? By the way, Hispanics also seem to come out worse than whites too, but not quite so much. Either they are inferior beings, inherently unsuited to life in a modern, western economy, or there are social, political and economic factors that work to their disadvantage and if that's the case then poverty cannot be looked at as entirely or mostly the fault of the poor.

You are essentially correct. There are no inherent genetic problems in non-white races that cause them to be inferior or ill-suited to modern western economies.

I see the problem for minorities as a cultural problem. Too many people who claim to represent the minorities actually hold them down. I won't name names because I don't want to get into some protracted debate about those people, but as a Latino, I have heard the message from other Latinos that white people don't want us to advance, that they rig the game against us so We have to fight the system. That's a big hook for gangs and I'm sure the messages are very similar for blacks.

The biggest advantage white people have is that they are never told these things. That's what white privilege is; White people don't live with the burden of imaginary conspiracies against them. The latinos and blacks that break out of the barrios and 'hoods are the ones who learn the Big Secret: There is no conspiracy. If you work as hard as a white kid and get good grades, you will go to college too. You will be doctors and lawyers, too. And more an more of us are learning the Secret.

I am an under-achiever, due to being a lazy so and so. I could have worked and studied harder. I could have driven myself to be some kind of big cheese somewhere by getting up earlier, eating more healthily or whatever. The consequence for me of not making the best possible choices (AKA living like the average Joe) is that I'm not as rich, famous or powerful as I might have been but even so, I have done OK. The consequence for a less favoured person, for whom the effort required to advance in life is much greater, is more profound.

I don't buy that "less favored" people have to expend much more effort to achieve as much as you have. All they have to do is follow the same road. The road is open to them, they just don't believe it.

At what age are these poor people of yours acquiring the wisdom and insight sufficiently to get their act together enough to make a difference? They are mostly born into a sea of poverty (I know the ranks are swelled by the downwardly mobile). Their normal world of family, friends, authority is what they see around them. When do you think they should be reaching awareness of the advantages of getting their homework done? What's your prescription for the averagely and less bright ones? Maybe living in rust belt cities or depressed areas where there aren't enough jobs? Try harder or go to the wall?

What made the difference for you and your fellow "doing OK" white dudes? Those are the same things that will work for minorities; as you pointed out, they aren't fundamentally different from you. We have to drown out the voices that tell them they are different.

For most people, just going with the flow, society will organise their outcomes for them, good or ill. Of course there is room for individuals to influence their own fate but experience suggests that few have what it takes to climb out of the hole by their own bootstraps.

And isn't there a funny contradiction in the capitalist position? People, they maintain, require incentive if they are to be economically most productive yet here are all these lazy, blameworthy poor people resolutely refusing to be incentivised. How come?

Culture, more than anything. Minorities have to break through walls of cultural programming that you didn't. But if I say, "Hey, Leader of the Latinos/Blacks! You are hurting your people with your lies!" suddenly I'm a racist.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I conflated two posts from different posters and thought you were saying something you weren't. Apologies. Even so, you are saying that poverty is the fault of the poor since they have choices they don't elect to take and the fact is, since we are talking about the US, black people are over-represented among the poor and under-represented in the middle class and social elites.

Now, how do you explain these facts, given your view that poor people choose to be poor by not doing things that would help them escape poverty? Why would black people be worse at making positive decisions than whites? By the way, Hispanics also seem to come out worse than whites too, but not quite so much. Either they are inferior beings, inherently unsuited to life in a modern, western economy, or there are social, political and economic factors that work to their disadvantage and if that's the case then poverty cannot be looked at as entirely or mostly the fault of the poor.

You would have to ask two different sets of people to get that answer and hope for honest answers from the ones who are claiming to be stuck (in my experience people will rarely take responsibility for their own bad decisions if they can get away with it). The first set of people would be the ones who DID get out and ask them what they did to do so and the second set are the ones who didn't get out and ask them if they did the same things that the ones who did get out did.

I am an under-achiever, due to being a lazy so and so. I could have worked and studied harder. I could have driven myself to be some kind of big cheese somewhere by getting up earlier, eating more healthily or whatever. The consequence for me of not making the best possible choices (AKA living like the average Joe) is that I'm not as rich, famous or powerful as I might have been but even so, I have done OK. The consequence for a less favoured person, for whom the effort required to advance in life is much greater, is more profound.

I never said that it would be easy. If someone chooses to be a slacker that's their own choice and they have at some point, even if it's on a subconscious level, resigned themselves to it. However that's not anyone elses fault but their own.

At what age are these poor people of yours acquiring the wisdom and insight sufficiently to get their act together enough to make a difference? They are mostly born into a sea of poverty (I know the ranks are swelled by the downwardly mobile). Their normal world of family, friends, authority is what they see around them. When do you think they should be reaching awareness of the advantages of getting their homework done? What's your prescription for the averagely and less bright ones? Maybe living in rust belt cities or depressed areas where there aren't enough jobs? Try harder or go to the wall?

I knew at an early age that an education was important and that it was going to be work to get it. I sucked at math and so my parents went out and bought some cheap grade appropriate workbooks to give me a lot more practice. I could read like a champ though and was reading Dr. Seuss books well before I was in Kindergarten with little pushing from my parents aside from learning my ABC's and them reading to me with their finger on the word that they were reading to me. Other kids might be the exact opposite. The key is involved parents to push their kids from an early age.

For most people, just going with the flow, society will organise their outcomes for them, good or ill. Of course there is room for individuals to influence their own fate but experience suggests that few have what it takes to climb out of the hole by their own bootstraps.

Nonsense. You might have chosen to not take the harder road and others have as well but that's a decision. If they don't "Have what it takes" in what way is that the fault of society at large? Society already offers a lot of help up but it takes some incentive on the part of the ones being helped to use it the way it is supposed to be used. It start's with the 3 R's and goes on from there.

And isn't there a funny contradiction in the capitalist position? People, they maintain, require incentive if they are to be economically most productive yet here are all these lazy, blameworthy poor people resolutely refusing to be incentivised. How come?

See above as to who you should be directing that question towards. Ask the successful people who got out of the hole and the ones who didn't. Ask them what was their incentive and who gave it to them. Odds are that the successful ones didn't look for the quick way out (music or sports seem to be the main legitimate ways to go in most poor communities in that regard) but instead slogged through it day by day, week by week, month by month and yes, year by year. It takes patience, resolution and a willingness to stick to it. It takes a bit of creativity and even a bit of humbleness at times. Pride has no place in getting out of that hole other than a sense of personal pride in doing what it takes to "Bootstrap" your way out. With that comes self confidence that it's possible to do more and more. I strongly suspect that the ones who can't get out simply lack that self confidence and give up before they start to reap the fruits of their labor. It's easy to lay the blame at the feet of others while you wallow in self pity. It's hard to turn a critical eye on yourself and not only find where the real problems lie but also how to fix it, even if that means asking for some help along the way.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think we are having two different conversations. You guys are assigning everything to individual moral responsibility but I am more interested in the results produced by social systems, which is the business of politics and the topic of this thread. Believe it or not, on this side of the pond, there are countries which have a very different approach to providing welfare and achieving greater social justice and they aren't going to the wall as a result.

If I open a public library in a poor area, for instance, some will use it to advantage and some will not but overall the result will probably be a more literate community. A social policy will have made a beneficial difference. Similarly, if a car factory opens there will be jobs and if it closes there won't. None of that has anything to do with individual get up and go.

Since no one is seriously suggesting that the long term change in wealth distribution is attributable to a corresponding change in human nature I think we should be looking elsewhere to explain the relative decline of the American middle class and the increasing concentration of wealth.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I think we are having two different conversations. You guys are assigning everything to individual moral responsibility but I am more interested in the results produced by social systems, which is the business of politics and the topic of this thread. Believe it or not, on this side of the pond, there are countries which have a very different approach to providing welfare and achieving greater social justice and they aren't going to the wall as a result.

If I open a public library in a poor area, for instance, some will use it to advantage and some will not but overall the result will probably be a more literate community. A social policy will have made a beneficial difference. Similarly, if a car factory opens there will be jobs and if it closes there won't. None of that has anything to do with individual get up and go.

Since no one is seriously suggesting that the long term change in wealth distribution is attributable to a corresponding change in human nature I think we should be looking elsewhere to explain the relative decline of the American middle class and the increasing concentration of wealth.

My response is that it's a bit from column A and a bit from column B. Social programs only work if the individuals take on the personal responsibility to use them as intended. To use your library example I can't frog march someone into one and force them to read. They have to do that themselves. Unfortunately some (and I use the term loosely here) cultures (it would better be described as micro-cultures) are geared towards making that a negative. Until you fix that general attitude there's not much to be done other than toss money at them so that they stay in their own neighborhoods (which is what we do now in the form of section 8 housing, welfare and so on).

As to wealth distribution, it's never going to be a zero sum game. As the saying goes 'time is money' and time is a free gift to all of us, it's what we do with our own allotment of time that matters. Some choose to spend that time making money first and helping others second. Others choose to spend their time helping others first and making money second. And then there are people who choose to do neither. Everyone makes a choice, or to be more specific a long string of choices.

You can argue that the third group didn't realize that they were actually making a choice because they weren't told that they did have the option to choose the first or second route and that argument does have some merit. That being said finding out about those options isn't all that hard to do if you start to look for them.

I myself took the route of joining the navy. Lots of hard work, lots of studying anything I could get my hands on and many long nights later (years worth I might add) and 6 years later I was one of the youngest first class petty officers in the entire navy that didn't gain one level of rank other than by passing exams and earning good evaluations (the navy will advance people for passing certain training programs and re-enlisting). I know of what I speak. Hard work and determination pays off.

I realize that some people are physically limited in taking that route (and others are cut off from it because of poor decisions that they made such as a criminal history) but I had quite a few shipmates that came from the very hole that we are talking about and have done very well for themselves after they got out. I at least partially attribute that to the work ethics that the navy ingrained in them. I had to ride a few of them to get their butts in gear (and I had to have the same done to me at first, I didn't start off all that 'Bootstrappy' and I'm smart enough to see that in hindsight and humble enough to admit it) but no social program can do that in a country where we let the individual choose to do what they want within certain legal limits.

I do want the poor to succeed and get out of that hole. It's good for them and it's good for me and everyone else but we can't force them to do what it takes to do that. Fill the trough to overflowing but if they won't drink out of it then it's a waste of time and energy to keep it full as it slowly empties through evaporation.

Simply taking (some would call it stealing) from the rich and giving to the poor without any effort by the poor to earn it is morally and ethically wrong as long as they are physically capable of earning it and it teaches the wrong lesson in personal responsibility.

 

[anglolawyer]

Sam.I.Am

Thanks for those thoughts. In another thread I would be fascinated to discuss your life in the navy (I am not being sarcastic). This is an aspect of American life that is distinctive: the prevalence of military experience in society. I know nobody in the UK with such experience but many American friends who have served or are related with someone who has.

I have had a number of possible answers to the question raised in the OP. Yours seems to be that there is no systemic problem, just a system which gives folks the freedom to make bad choices. Is that fair?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Sam.I.Am

Thanks for those thoughts. In another thread I would be fascinated to discuss your life in the navy (I am not being sarcastic). This is an aspect of American life that is distinctive: the prevalence of military experience in society. I know nobody in the UK with such experience but many American friends who have served or are related with someone who has.

I have had a number of possible answers to the question raised in the OP. Yours seems to be that there is no systemic problem, just a system which gives folks the freedom to make bad choices. Is that fair?

Almost. As I said, a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Are there some systemic issues? Sure. Name one system that doesn't have them. However I don't think that those issues are crippling in and of themselves as some people try to make them out to be. There are always (legal) ways around them as long as you apply yourself. It's when people lay the blame solely on any systemic issue and ignore the personal responsibility aspect of it that I start to have a problem.

The same goes for the reverse. One can't always lay the blame solely on individual responsibility if there is a systemic roadblock in their way. It's what they do about that roadblock that matters. It may mean a bit more work than someone else had to deal with but that's life. No two people are the same and there is a certain amount of luck and being in the right place at the right time involved in how many things work out at an individual level. There is no checklist out there that can cover all of the variables from womb to coffin. That's where I think that most social programs fail.

 

[anglolawyer]

Almost. As I said, a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Are there some systemic issues? Sure. Name one system that doesn't have them. However I don't think that those issues are crippling in and of themselves as some people try to make them out to be. There are always (legal) ways around them as long as you apply yourself. It's when people lay the blame solely on any systemic issue and ignore the personal responsibility aspect of it that I start to have a problem.

The same goes for the reverse. One can't always lay the blame solely on individual responsibility if there is a systemic roadblock in their way. It's what they do about that roadblock that matters. It may mean a bit more work than someone else had to deal with but that's life. No two people are the same and there is a certain amount of luck and being in the right place at the right time involved in how many things work out at an individual level. There is no checklist out there that can cover all of the variables from womb to coffin. That's where I think that most social programs fail.

OK but we have somewhat strayed from the topic, which is concerned with long term trends, particularly those affecting the middle class who cast most of the votes but don't seem to have exerted much influence on policy makers:

Income data indicate that the middle class, including the upper middle class, have seen far slower income growth than the top 1% since 1980.[42][43] While its income increased as fast as that of the rich in the years following the second World War, it has since experienced far slower income gains than the top. According to economist Janet Yellen "the growth [in real income] was heavily concentrated at the very tip of the top, that is, the top 1 percent".[43] Between 1979 and 2005, the mean after-tax income of the top 1% increased by an inflation adjusted 176% versus 69% for the top 20% overall. The fourth quintile saw its mean net income increase by 29%, the middle income quintile by 21%, the second quintile by 17% and the bottom quintile by 6%, respectively.[41]

...

A study by Brookings Institution in June 2006 revealed that Middle-income neighborhoods as a proportion of all metropolitan neighborhoods declined from 58 percent in 1970 to 41 percent in 2000. As housing costs increase, the middle class is squeezed and forced to live in less desirable areas making upward mobility more difficult. Safety, school systems, and even jobs are all linked to neighborhood types.[51]

If you read on in that link you will see the picture above is not universally accepted and that the figures have been skewed by changes in the way taxable income is reported. So maybe the entire premise of Reich's piece is wrong and we have all been wasting our time here

 

[Distracted1]

Sam.I.Am

Thanks for those thoughts. In another thread I would be fascinated to discuss your life in the navy (I am not being sarcastic). This is an aspect of American life that is distinctive: the prevalence of military experience in society. I know nobody in the UK with such experience but many American friends who have served or are related with someone who has.

I have had a number of possible answers to the question raised in the OP. Yours seems to be that there is no systemic problem, just a system which gives folks the freedom to make bad choices. Is that fair?

The armed services in the US are a defacto jobs program. Signing up has long been seen as a viable option for those with drive and ambition who are perhaps otherwise unsuited to higher education.
Even that has reached its limit at times, prior to 9/11 the armed services were much more selective with regards to who they would accept.

But we are having a discussion here that misses the point of the OP