Religious Book Exchange

[Zygar]

That may be true and that was also what I thought until I actually had the experience and now I cannot deny that it is more than simply an emotional experience. I was atheist before that.

That is fascinating.

I became a non-believer because I could not understand how an emotional reaction which I could trigger in myself could possibly be verification of the existence of God, or of the truth of any religious text. Because it is nothing more than an internalized reaction, there is nothing in it to indicate to me any external presence.

 

[rcronk]

zygar - welcome. The emotional reaction of which you speak is different than what I'm talking about - I explained that a few posts back. Are you ready to pick a book and try the experiment?

 

[RandFan]

Fair enough. I'm sorry that you, according to what you have said, convinced yourself that it was true instead of the Holy Ghost convincing you that it was true.

?

My experience was to say the least spiritual. I was filled with a very strong feeling of well being and I became emotional. This happened to me on many occasions including in the Celestial room of the Temple, testifying to potential converts, being sealed to my wife at the Temple, baptizing and/or confirming converts, baptizing and confirming my children, etc., etc.

So you are saying that I, as a sincere and faithful follower who studied the scriptures, paid tithing, went to church faithfully, served regularly at the temple was denied god's message?

That's really odd. It most certainly is counter to the notion of a god who "giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not".

I think that's the difference that I see between our experiences. I have had both types of experiences in my life and I can tell you that the latter is nothing like the former at all. And until I had the latter experience, I would have thought that the former was real. So I can see how people can get confused.

Yeah, especially when the church says that all sincere people are equally entitled to such a message.

I think you've made a very important point. Let me quote a part of the Doctrine and Covenants and the bible that explains this phenomenon a little more precisely so people don't get confused:

Now I'm even more confused. Luke 11:10 - 15 says


For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Why wouldn't god give me what he gave you? I prayed faithfully for two decades. I was member in good standing. I was doing what was asked of me.

It seems you are saying god chose to give me a scorpion?

I suspect that there is a more parsimonius answer.

And the result you get includes a reflection of your own self (i.e. if you're dishonest, honest, selfish, generous, etc. these things will impact your ability to get an answer) - which is also a source of confusion based on each person. There are other things that work like this such as knowing that you love your kids, but you can't prove it or acquire that knowledge through the scientific method, only through your own experience.

Now I'm even more confused. I knew the church was true the way I knew I loved my children. It was an emotional conviction. I was willing to sacrifice my life for god. Serving two years of a mission was no small sacrifice. I paid for it mostly myself and sold my car (a 1967 Camaro I restored).

So, you really are not making sense to me.

 

[Tanstaafl]

zygar - welcome. The emotional reaction of which you speak is different than what I'm talking about - I explained that a few posts back. Are you ready to pick a book and try the experiment?

I've hesitated to say this, but you are getting deeper and deeper into a No True Scotsman fallacy.

People tell you that they had the same emotional experience you did, yet it did not convert them. You counter that it couldn't have been the same experience or it would have. But you don't know that. Others have had extremely deep convincing reactions as you describe, but which they still did not think was a message from god. Still others have had a similar feeling which convinced them that it was Allah telling them the Qu'ran was true.

The bottom line is that you cannot simply define a real religious experience (after reading the BoM) as one that convinces you God is telling you that it's true. That is a logical fallacy and will get you nowhere here.

 

[rcronk]

RandFan - Just after your James 1:5 quote, it says this:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Similar conditions exist in the Moroni scripture. What I'm saying is that there are conditions that must be met to receive an answer. I didn't meet the conditions the first time I tried, and I also have fallen away at times because of sins, pride, and for other reasons. I was blinded by those sins and pride. I truly don't know anything about you or your experience, I'm just explaining my own experience and explaining the conditions. You are the only one who can look at your experience combined with these conditions and figure out if there was something holding you back or not. It's also possible that you did get an answer from the Holy Ghost at first but fell away later because of sin, apathy, pride, or being tricked by the "subtle craftiness of men" as they lie and persuade with half truths.

Tanstaafl - Good point about the Scotsman fallacy. I hope I have clarified above that I'm just reiterating that there are conditions of honesty, sincerity, and humility that have to be met in order for an answer to come from the Holy Ghost rather than just feeling good about what you've read that comes from your own emotions.

It makes sense that there would be conditions. For example, if I had received an answer while I was still rebellious or didn't really want the answer, then God would be making my subsequent rebellion even more damaging. He waited for me to be ready to receive the answer at a time that was best for me - when I was ready to listen and stop spitting on him. I hope that clarifies things.

 

[rcronk]

Double post - I wish the "edit/delete" button would actually allow me to delete.

 

[Zygar]

zygar - welcome. The emotional reaction of which you speak is different than what I'm talking about - I explained that a few posts back. Are you ready to pick a book and try the experiment?

Been there, done that, and I am talking about the same thing you are. Sorry, I know the texts probably better than most because I've read the KJV, BoM, D&C several times each. Nothing at this point is going to change by me reading them again.

 

[rcronk]

Fair enough - unless your disposition has changed since the last time you read them.

 

[rcronk]

P.S. I'm going to take a break from this thread. My life is busy and I don't have time to put into this right now. Good luck all.

 

[Tirdun]

Well, I'm still pluggin' away.

Through section 40 now. Something like... 98 to go.

Hows it progressing?

I've read the BoM (although apparently not with an open enough heart to experience anything), but D&C and PoGP weren't high on my library list. If it's just more of the same, I'll continue to hold off.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Hows it progressing?

I've read the BoM (although apparently not with an open enough heart to experience anything), but D&C and PoGP weren't high on my library list. If it's just more of the same, I'll continue to hold off.

Not more of the same, but rather it's a case of Joseph Smith getting very specific answers to questions from "Jesus".

Obviously rcronk will have a different take on this, but it's pretty clear that whenever things weren't going quite the way J.S. wanted in the new church, he got a "revelation" that essentially said god was ordering exactly what Smith wanted in the first place. Some of these revelations are about very minor, mundane things. Ordering that specific people go on missions to specific places, that a church conference be held at a specific place and time, and if I read it correctly, god conveniently told the early mormons to support Smith financially.

Oh, and frequently others had the idea that they too could receive revelations for fun and profit, so several of Smith's revelations were god telling the church that all the other prophets were phony.


I've been away a bit myself, but I'm through section 60 so far.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Am I the only one left in the book club?

 

[rcronk]

I'll check in from time to time. Perhaps you could just send me a PM if you have questions. And you are correct about me having a different point of view on revelations. I'm surprised to see you pick a side on J.S. without evidence - innocent until proven guilty, right?

 

[RandFan]

Similar conditions exist in the Moroni scripture. What I'm saying is that there are conditions that must be met to receive an answer.

No True Scotsman type of argument. I never wavered in my sincere request. On the contrary. I gave up two years of my life and served an honorable mission. When I was out 18 months the church changed it's requirements (for a short while) and made missions 18 months. Many people went home but I stayed the full 2 years precisely because I did not waver.

 

[RandFan]

I'm surprised to see you pick a side on J.S. without evidence - innocent until proven guilty, right?

There is a lot of evidence that JS was a fraud.

 

[Tanstaafl]

I'm wondering (to on one in particular), in light of this passage in D&C, why would Mormon missionaries make a piont of trying again once someone has turned them away form their house?

I have had missionaries try repeatedly with me, but this would seem to tell them to give up after being rejected once:

84:92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and acleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man.

Just curious.

 

[rcronk]

RandFan - It's also a possibility that you did get an answer initially but then fell away later because of pride, sin, offense, or something else. It's also possible that it's just a huge fraud. I have had experiences - including going from LDS to atheist, to many religions, and back to LDS again - that have shown me that it's not a fraud but is real and true. I don't know you and so I can't tell you what happened to you - that's for you to figure out - or not.

Tanstaafl - Missionaries don't have the time or resources to keep track of everyone who may have rejected them and who has moved in or out of a particular house, so I would imagine you would get missionaries just going around and offering the message to everyone - maybe multiple times. It would seem missionary work is quite different than it was in 1832 when that revelation was given, so that might also have something to do with it - as in the difference between one missionary per country back in 1832 vs. several per city today, etc. That's just my own guess though.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan - It's also a possibility that you did get an answer initially but then fell away later because of pride, sin, offense, or something else. It's also possible that it's just a huge fraud. I have had experiences - including going from LDS to atheist, to many religions, and back to LDS again - that have shown me that it's not a fraud but is real and true. I don't know you and so I can't tell you what happened to you - that's for you to figure out - or not.

To be fair, yes, these are all possible. Of course it's possible that you are deluded or that you are lying to us. Right?

Rcronk, I didn't fall away because of pride, sin, offense or anything else like that. I was an active and honorable member when I came to the realization that Mormonism was a man made institution. It was very depresssing and difficult to accept. I continued to go to church and pay my tithing.

FTR, one cannot be intelectually honest, know the facts and continue to believe. Sure, there are explanations but they don't hold up under scrutiny.

I would have to say that a person who knows all of the facts before joining would be very, very unlikely to join the church. Not impossible. Just very unlikely. Science understands religious conversion and it only happens under narrow circumstances. One must be able to entertain that something could very possibley be true.

I am not anti-Mormon. Many of my friends and all of my family are Mormon. My wifes family are Mormon. I enjoy good freindships with Mormons.

It's just not true.

 

[Roboramma]

rcronk - what makes you think that randfan's religious experience was different from yours? Can you describe your experience? How do you know that your feeling that Mormonism is true, is true?

How does your religious experience differ from those of hindus, jews, muslims, etc? In what way do their descriptions of their experiences differ from yours? Do they?

 

[rcronk]

Roboramma - The only thing I have to go on is my experiences, some of which are similar to RandFan's, some of which are not. I know what the fruits of my actions have been and so I can only suggest that those might be possibilities for others who are going through something similar. RandFan and I have both explained our experiences, etc. and there are similarities and differences. Explaining how I know it is true is as difficult as explaining what salt tastes like to someone who's never tasted it. I think God set it up this way so that each of us are personally responsible for our own relationship with Him rather than lazily depending upon someone else's "proof" - though many fall into that pattern anyway. I do know that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His perfect Son who walked the earth 2000 years ago, that Joseph Smith was a true (imperfect, just like Moses, etc.) prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. For each one of these specific statements, I have had specific spiritual confirmations. It was a warm, peaceful feeling combined with pure knowledge being poured into me - sorry, that sounds corny, but it's the best way I can figure out to put it into English. It was something outside of myself coming into myself.

RandFan - I do have a curiosity question for you. Specifically which parts of Mormon doctrine and commandments are you breaking now, if any? Don't worry, I'm not going to use anything you say against you in any way, I just want to understand more about your experience and this question might help me understand. Of course, you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.