Religion trumps Science?!?!?

[Bronze Dog]

It mentions that studies were performed on HIV which showed that it was highly unlikely that it mutated from a similar virus in monkeys.

Where are these studies published?

It said other stuff about ID cards to check up on people and hidden messages in the media to manipulate people. It said that certain songs by artists such as Madonna and the Eagles when played backwords have a hidden message regarding Satan.

Subliminal messages don't work. Falsify my tenative null hypothesis.

It also mentioned conflict of the freemasons and a one eyed Jewish antichrist against muslims. It also mentioned hidden masonic symbolism such as the all seeing eye on US currency.

Sigh.

 

[jambo372]

Where are these studies published?



Subliminal messages don't work. Falsify my tenative null hypothesis.



Sigh.

I never says the tape was correct. I'm just mentioning some of it's theories.

Are you a mason ?

 

[Bronze Dog]

I never says the tape was correct. I'm just mentioning some of it's theories.

Are you a mason ?

Oh. Sorry.

Nope.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer.

I've read about studies supporting this view, but I can't think of any off hand. It seems quite reasonable to think that the placebo effect would be quite strong.

The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound.

I'm not sure if they're saying that it's sound. Just that they have the right to make that decision if they want to. Whereas a child does not.

 

[Antiquehunter]

AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.
'Nuff said.]

True - Art didn't specify 'positive' - which is why I also ended my statement "I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?" - acknowledging that there had been 'effects'. I was hoping to move the discussion along to trying to find some positive effects religion has had on medicine.

Art has pointed out that he may have seen reports that suggest some success with positive response to prayer. I think I recall an article in Skeptic mag a few years ago. Off to Google, unless someone can dig it up... I agree with Art that the placebo effect may make it LOOK like prayer is being effective - but that isn't really attributable directly to religious belief, is it?

-Oke

-Oke

 

[fishbob]

(why is that we cant delete our own posts? I dont understand)

and

The "spiritual" thing about the world is its mystery, the thing that you feel when you contemplate something that you cant fully grasp nor understand, to be the pasive (or sometimes active) spectator of the whole set of experiences available to a sentient being.[\b]

Must be spiritual.

 

[Art Vandelay]

True - Art didn't specify 'positive' - which is why I also ended my statement "I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?" - acknowledging that there had been 'effects'. I was hoping to move the discussion along to trying to find some positive effects religion has had on medicine.

There's quite a bit of difference between "consistently in a positive fashion" and "some positive effects". A lot of hospitals are run by religious groups, for one.

I agree with Art that the placebo effect may make it LOOK like prayer is being effective - but that isn't really attributable directly to religious belief, is it?

I don't see the distinction. The placebo effect doesn't mean that it merely looks like it's helping; it is helping. If the placebo effect saves someone's life, it seems like quite a quibble to say that's not real. What, does he just appear to still be alive?

 

[Antiquehunter]

There's quite a bit of difference between "consistently in a positive fashion" and "some positive effects". A lot of hospitals are run by religious groups, for one.

-Point.

I don't see the distinction. The placebo effect doesn't mean that it merely looks like it's helping; it is helping. If the placebo effect saves someone's life, it seems like quite a quibble to say that's not real. What, does he just appear to still be alive?

The placebo effect itself is what is sustaining someone in this case - not the power of prayer. Sure - prayer was the catalyst for the placebo effect - but this is not power of prayer. This is power of the placebo effect.

Still searching for that Skeptic mag article.

 

[Moose]

The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound.

According to a discussion I had with my surgeon's assistant while we were getting the paperwork for my surgery squared away, it is apparently a point of Canadian law that a competent adult has the right to refuse treatment, even if the treatment is necessary to save his/her own life.

One of the documents I had to sign covered instructions of what the surgeon was allowed to do (over and above the surgical procedure) to save my life if things went badly. Permission to consider a transfusion was one of the first few questions. (I answered "yes", in case anybody cares.)

I can't remember hearing about any instance (at least in the news) where a Canadian hospital challenged such an instruction.

A child needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Parent states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather my child's fate is in the hands of god'. 84% of doctors say that in this case the child should have the transfusion.

It gets a lot more complicated, ethically, when a designated guardian refuses necessary life-saving treatment on behalf of a minor.

I remember several instances where the hospitals went to court to challenge the decision. Of the ones I remember most clearly, one was a JW family with a transfusion at issue, the other two were children who wanted to decline chemo and try out someone's woo-"cure". I remember these cases in particular, because the courts ruled against the parents.