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Religion is to God as Sci-Fi is to Science

It's not irrelevant. BSG is deliberately and intentionally based on mormonism. It is not a mistake, or coincidence it was done on purpose. You failed to identify that even though it was so blatantly done.


To say that Superman is like Jesus or based on Jesus is not the same as identifying the archetype that both Superman and Jesus are manifestations of.

To say that BSG is based on Mormonism is not the same as identifying the archetypes that they both boil down to.
 
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The Psychlos are the 'demons' of the tribe of humans, the psychlos have a place in their mythology. ...snip...

Or they were just re-imagined psychiatrists and psycologists turned in to villains on a cheap vengeance. L. Ron Hubbard happened to hate them because they don't agree with his BS.

See, the myths, the tales are reflecting you and your hopes, fears and wishes, Limbo. Your reflections will not be like someone else's. You are looking for absolutes where there are few if any.

Not to mention Jung's archetypes have never been shown to exist.
 
The Psychlos are the 'demons' of the tribe of humans, the psychlos have a place in their mythology. As the tribe member who departs the realm of the known and encounters them, that puts Johnny Goodboy Tyler in the role of shaman initiate.

He departs the known, enters the unknown, encounters and overcomes the 'tribal demons', and returns with the boon. Pretty standard monomyth. Whether Hubbard intended it to be a Scientology thing or not is irrelevant.
Genocide of another race is a shaman trait?
 
Or they were just re-imagined psychiatrists and psycologists turned in to villains on a cheap vengeance. L. Ron Hubbard happened to hate them because they don't agree with his BS.


Even if that's true, the skeletal structure of the story is still the monomyth. The monomyth boils down to shamanic or mystical initiation. This is not only the root of world religion and myth, it's the root of sci-fi.

Not to mention Jung's archetypes have never been shown to exist.


Shown to exist? What, you mean like taking an X-ray of someones head and saying, "There! An archetype!"
 
Genocide of another race is a shaman trait?


The psychlos aren't another race. That's just the symbolic form. Form is secondary. See, the problem is you don't know how to decode symbols. You are reading the denotation, not the connotation. That's the exact same mistake that religious fundamentalists make when they read their mythology.
 
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Even if that's true, the skeletal structure of the story is still the monomyth. The monomyth boils down to shamanic or mystical initiation. This is not only the root of world religion and myth, it's the root of sci-fi.

Google for psychiatrists + psycologists + psychlos.

The monomyth -if it actually exists and if its actually a useful notion- can be applied to most fictional (and semi-fictional) works, regardless of the genre; this includes The Bible, the Popol Vuh, soap operas, Star Wars, The Three Musketeers and My Little Pony. This doesn't mean people who enjoy soap operas or My Little Pony are worshipping some mystic god (no, not even the Bronies). This also doesn't mean mystic experiences are representations, manifestations of an external reality, be it other realms, be it god, be it the trickster.

It just means there is at least one formula for a good storytelling.

Shown to exist? What, you mean like taking an X-ray of someones head and saying, "There! An archetype!"

A specimen for display at a museum will do. You know what I mean.

Remember, Limbo, myths and tales are tricky. Again, they reflect you and your hopes, fears and wishes. Your reflections will not be like someone else's. You are looking for absolutes where there are few if any. The myths and tales are tricking you. Better yet, you are a trickster using myths to trick yourself.
 
The psychlos aren't another race. That's just the symbolic form. Form is secondary. See, the problem is you don't know how to decode symbols. You are reading the denotation, not the connotation. That's the exact same mistake that religious fundamentalists make when they read their mythology.
That's baloney. They come from a different planet and your pal Johny kills their home world by secreting dirty nukes in the coffins of their dead which are shipped to their home world. It's genocide, no more, no less.

Of course, your god is no stranger to genocide, we know that.
 
That's baloney. They come from a different planet and your pal Johny kills their home world by secreting dirty nukes in the coffins of their dead which are shipped to their home world. It's genocide, no more, no less.

Of course, your god is no stranger to genocide, we know that.


You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :p

Just who do you think my God is, exactly?

Oh, I get it. Since I'm here taking you guys on, that must make me a religious fundamentalist. And a young-earth creationist too, no doubt, and frothing at the mouth for genocide.

:rolleyes:
 
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You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :p

Just who do you think my God is, exactly?

Oh, I get it. Since I'm here taking you guys on, that must make me a religious fundamentalist. And a young-earth creationist too, no doubt, and frothing at the mouth for genocide.

:rolleyes:

Taking us on or having us on?
 
Has it? I suppose one could argue it has its ancestry in being a derivative of the gothic genre but that is so far in the past can't see how it is relevant today. As for the genre of literature that is derivative of other genres, one only has to read the sneering excuses of "...but it isn't real science fiction..." when one of the literature genre critics finds one of "their" authors dabbling in science fiction.

Sure, but the underlying thing to remember, you don't have to write well to produce good science fiction. Idea and setting are cherished above all else. Since the 1980s though science fiction writers have concerned themselves more with style and I think authors like Ted Chiang are outstanding examples of authors who could hold their own in the 'lit world'
 
Bazzzzzzzzzingah


Funny you should say that, it reminds me of Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory... an atheist whose love of sci-fi/comic books and science pretty much epitomizes what this thread is about. His church is the comic-book store he frequents. Stan Lee is probably his Prophet. Or maybe Leonard Nimoy.
 
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You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :p

Just who do you think my God is, exactly?

Oh, I get it. Since I'm here taking you guys on, that must make me a religious fundamentalist. And a young-earth creationist too, no doubt, and frothing at the mouth for genocide.

:rolleyes:


Oh please. The most basic principle of mysticism is that you are god. Ask a hard one next time.
 
Oh please. The most basic principle of mysticism is that you are god. Ask a hard one next time.


Who, me? I'm just a mild-mannered reporter.

"God is, if you will, a name previous cultures and eras have given to this other part of who we actually are. So this ends up effectively divinizing human beings, but not the social self or the ego, not what I call the “Clark Kent” aspect of who we are but this sort of secret self, the other side of it that peeks through very rarely but fairly consistently throughout human history. So it’s really a way of trying to humanize and bring down the divinity into human experience."

-Jeffrey Kripal
 
The Psychlos are the 'demons' of the tribe of humans

No, they are aliens. Villains, if you want to make it simple, and stupid ones at that.

Even if that's true, the skeletal structure of the story is still the monomyth. The monomyth boils down to shamanic or mystical initiation.

You keep saying that, and I say that you are over-simplifying the issue. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim ?

I also notice you have failed to address a single point of mine.
 
The psychlos aren't another race. That's just the symbolic form. Form is secondary. See, the problem is you don't know how to decode symbols. You are reading the denotation, not the connotation. That's the exact same mistake that religious fundamentalists make when they read their mythology.


You started out this thread claiming that science fiction is actually a religion due to the encoded symbolic meanings in the fiction. But now you're implying that most readers don't know how to decode those symbolic meanings.

Which makes it just science fiction after all.

Suppose I say that eating lollipops is actually an act of demon worship because it symbolizes the risen Cthulhu devouring human souls. People respond: no, it doesn't have that meaning for me, it's just candy on a stick that I eat because it tastes good. I then accuse them of being ignorant of the symbolic content of lollipops.

See how the second accusation nullifies the first? If people don't know (or don't agree with me) that sucking on lollipops is an act of Cthulhu worship, then it's incorrect for me to say that they're worshipping Cthulhu by eating lollipops.

The monomyth, because it is so widely applicable, is also rather weak as a symbolic meaning. It's like pointing out that a writer uses the letter e a lot. Because almost all writers in English use the letter e a lot, it's not a very interesting or revealing observation. Because almost all stories can be made to seem to fit the monomyth if both story and monomyth are interpreted loosely enough, a particular story or genre seeming to fit the monomyth is not particularly notable.


It's frustrating that you throw these ideas around so carelessly, because there actually is a pervasive myth in science fiction worth taking note of. The same pervasive myth is also widely and deeply distributed in Christianity, Buddhism, and mysticism. That's the myth of humans, both as individuals and as a society or species, progressing over time into "higher" states of being. Whether you call the next more advanced state Nirvana, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Singularity, enlightenment, Operant Thetan, or Second Stage Lensman, the myth is the same.

One particularly clear example in SF is 2001: A Space Odyssey, both the novel and film versions. (Where the two differ, I'll address the differences.) Its overarching myth is the human progression I just mentioned. The specific narrative depicts two breakthrough events in that progression, aided in both cases by something depicted as a rectangular monolith. The first progression is from animal to tool-using species, and the second is from technological human to the transcendent but indescribable next stage represented by the star-child. Conflict appears in the narrative over which species will get to progress through the second transformation: the human protagonist Bowman (everyman, bow-man, the tool using creature that emerged in the "Dawn of Man" sequence at the beginning), or the machine intelligence HAL. Is human technology itself the path to a more advanced state of existence? The answer, in this story, is no (although technology used as tools, represented equally by the thigh bone and the spaceships, is necessary for the journey.)

In the novel, it's clear that the monoliths are advanced alien artifacts intended to guide the progression of humans (and, in other places in the galaxy, other species.) The movie explains less, leaving more room for interpretation. Viewers and critics interpreted the monoliths in all sorts of ways, often as God or other transcendent forces or entities, or as a symbol for time or spirit or intelligence or higher dimensions or any number of other things. In the novel, after flying through star portals, Bowman finds himself in an environment that's obviously an artificial habitat for humans created by aliens; in the movie, the wordless hotel suite scene where Bowman experiences progressively aged versions of himself plays more like a mystical experience.

The narrative of 2001 is mythic in that it addresses the progression-myth I mentioned in very direct ways. That doesn't mean the narrative is itself a myth. The narrative itself is a narrative, a story. The myth is a pervasive idea that's run through many cultures for over two millennia now (and which might be nearing its expiration date, but that's another discussion).

Given that the same myth can underlie a variety of different religions, it's clear that a myth alone doesn't define a religion. Even a set of beliefs or narratives doesn't do it. I've criticized skeptics and atheists for regarding religious narratives as if they were the whole of a system of practice, overlooking the equally important roles of practices and experiences, and if you insist on making the same mistake I'll call you on it too. And not even all systems of practices are religions.

By focusing on "it's a religion," you've turned your claims into no more than a cliché. It's in the same category as "Look, baseball is a religion, the fields/stadiums are temples, the managers are high priests, the league commissioner is the Pope, the games are services, yadda yadda yadda." That tactic leads nowhere.
 
Myriad, thank you for your long and thougtful post that I can really sink my teeth into. I appreciate it. :)

I'm sorry if I'm frustrating you. I'll try to clear things up a bit and hopefully we can get on the same page. There are two things I want to clear up, and I'm hoping that after that things might get easler. The first is about the monomyth. The second is about the paranormal.

The reason that the monomyth is the monomyth in the first place is because of the psychological pattern of development that shamans and mystics endure. In a nutshell, there is a going from the known state to the unknown, a trial and fulfillment, and a return to the known. For tens of thousands of years tribal shamans have gone through their own inner monomyth as their psychology develops, and the stories of myth and religion spring from that. They aren't just yarns developed around the campfire to explain things like thunder and lightning. They reflect a psychological process that only the tribal shaman knows, and that process has found expression through myth for tens of thousands of years. It is part of human experience.

So, for a story to have the monomyth as skeletal structure, there should to be a journey into the unknown geography inner or outer, or a transformation from one state of being to another. A death and resurrection, so to speak. There should be recognizable archetypes of the collective unconscious, and relationships between them. That is why sci-fi is so accomodating of the monomyth, because there is a 'to boldly go where no one has gone before' element readily available. We have pretty much explored and conquered the planet... there is little room here for the unknown frontier. Space is the unknown where we can stretch our imagination into, and space is the domain of sci-fi. Not every kind of story from every genre can accomodate that.

One such archetype is mana. It can be thought of as spiritual power, as psychic ability, or as alien technology so advanced it may as well be magic. That brings us to the paranormal. Now, since you are here at JREF, I think it's safe to assume you doubt that the paranormal is real. Shamans don't have that luxury. The archetype of mana is encountered by the shaman during his inner monomyth. So stories that use the monomyth closely will contain that archetype, and the most obvious example I think is Star Wars and the Force.

The paranormal, or encounters with the unknown forces of reality, are a universal part of the shaman experience. They don't just make it up, and they don't trick themselves into believing in it. Shamans use their psychic abilities on behalf of the tribe... whether it be remote viewing animals to hunt, psychic healing, or weather manipulation via pk. They aid in our survival. So spiritual power or mana is a universal part of world religion and myth, because shamanism is the root of it all. And now it is a part of sci-fi and comic books... whether it be a super-power or a UFO.
 
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The reason that the monomyth is the monomyth in the first place is because of the psychological pattern of development that shamans and mystics endure. In a nutshell, there is a going from the known state to the unknown, a trial and fulfillment, and a return to the known. For tens of thousands of years tribal shamans have gone through their own inner monomyth as their psychology develops, and the stories of myth and religion spring from that. They aren't just yarns developed around the campfire to explain things like thunder and lightning. They reflect a psychological process that only the tribal shaman knows, and that process has found expression through myth for tens of thousands of years. It is part of human experience.


Are you sure that mystical or shamanic narratives are the original source? Consider common life experiences in a stone age society. You go out hunting, into less familiar land (where the game is, because the game has learned to avoid your settlements); you endure trials (traversing hazardous ground, living with minimal shelter, finding your way, locating and killing the game which might also be quite capable of killing you); you experience success (or not) and return home, ideally with meat. Or: you go on a raid or a war party against some other tribe, traveling into hostile land; you fight, likely experiencing the deaths of companions and injury to yourself; you win (or escape) and return home, ideally with victory trophies or loot.

Now imagine you're tasked with training adolescents to prepare for those experiences. Any kind of practice or simulated hunt or raid is going to contain representations of those same elements: departure, trials, times of doubt or fear that test ones resolve, the moment of violent crisis, navigating your way back to normal life.

All in all, doesn't it seem more likely that the monomyth and the path of shamanic development derived from those real-world experiences, instead of the other way around? Try describing a hunt or raid (or a sea voyage, or a trade mission to obtain a needed resource, or a migration to escape an invader or natural disaster, or being cast out of ones birth tribe as a young male to seek a mate from another tribe—a practice that probably pre-dates the differentiation of the human species) in a narrative that makes logical sense but doesn't evoke the monomyth. Not so easy, I'd say.

With a little less literal interpretation of the journey, even more real-life experiences fit. Illness and recovery, for instance. Bearing and delivering a child. Sexual initiation. (Present-day too. Consider the elements of the boring medical stories old people tell. The mysterious symptoms. The numerous tests. The terrible hospital food. The helpful (or mean) nurse. The wise doctor. Being anesthetized. Complications. "They say my heart stopped for thirty-seven seconds." The painful rehab exercises.)

Why would only a tribal shaman know these experiences? If searching for the origin of narratives about journeys, I'd look first to people who went on actual journeys.


So, for a story to have the monomyth as skeletal structure, there should to be a journey into the unknown geography inner or outer, or a transformation from one state of being to another. A death and resurrection, so to speak. There should be recognizable archetypes of the collective unconscious, and relationships between them. That is why sci-fi is so accomodating of the monomyth, because there is a 'to boldly go where no one has gone before' element readily available. We have pretty much explored and conquered the planet... there is little room here for the unknown frontier. Space is the unknown where we can stretch our imagination into, and space is the domain of sci-fi. Not every kind of story from every genre can accomodate that.


Okay, there's some validity to that.

It's often pointed out that for a lot of space SF, space is really just substituting for the ocean. Often complete with nautical traditions and terminology, whether it makes sense ("space storms") or not. Before there was a Space Odyssey there was, after all, The Odyssey. Moving certain kinds of story from strange unknown seas into strange unknown star systems is partly a side effect of having mapped ("shrunk") the earth.

Other genres can accommodate the same things, though. For instance: simply back-date the story to when there were unknown frontiers, and you have, among others, Westerns and high seas adventures. Or set the story on an invented world with alternate rules, and you have fantasy. (Fantasy and SF are often lumped together, but you can't really do so because you've asserted that SF's connection to science is important, and fantasy has no such connection.)

One such archetype is mana. It can be thought of as spiritual power, as psychic ability, or as alien technology so advanced it may as well be magic. That brings us to the paranormal. Now, since you are here at JREF, I think it's safe to assume you doubt that the paranormal is real. Shamans don't have that luxury. The archetype of mana is encountered by the shaman during his inner monomyth. So stories that use the monomyth closely will contain that archetype, and the most obvious example I think is Star Wars and the Force.

The paranormal, or encounters with the unknown forces of reality, are a universal part of the shaman experience. They don't just make it up, and they don't trick themselves into beleiving in it. Shamans use their psychic abilities on behalf of the tribe... whether it be remote viewing animals to hunt, psychic healing, or weather manipulation via pk. They aid in our survival. So spiritual power or mana is a universal part of world religion and myth, because shamanism is the root of it all. And now it is a part of sci-fi and comic books... whether it be a super-power or a UFO.


The word "real," like the word "believe," is one of those words that's all the more troublesome because everyone thinks they have a very clear and consensual sense of what it means. When a rationalist says that something is real, it generally means that that thing can withstand a certain amount of empirical poking and prodding, including verification by others. However, when push comes to shove, most will admit that we do not have any grip on absolute reality, but instead, various (though often extremely reliable) models. Something that's not real, then, is something that is unnecessary in the best available models of the world.

The world does include subjective experiences. If I dream of an elephant, that dreamed elephant might be more immediate and important to me than a living breathing elephant in some zoo a hundred miles away. So, why when children have bad dreams about monsters do we tell them, "it's not real?" That's just slightly lazy shorthand for, "it does not have the property of persistence that physical creatures have" or "it cannot hurt you in the ways that a physical animal could hurt you."

When it comes right down to it, though, a devoted physicalist must acknowledge that the dream elephant must indeed be just as real as the elephant in the zoo. Both are composed of dynamically changing elements (neural impulses in one case, molecules in another) interacting in extremely complex ways; both are transient; both are applied the descriptor "elephant" based on meeting socially agreed upon descriptive criteria. To say that the mental image of an elephant that my brain really did form is some special category of thing that doesn't really exist materially would actually be a vestige of the Cartesian dualism that a physicalist rejects. But, its acceptable, and in fact quite expected, that the zoo elephant and the dream elephant will have some very different properties. One of them, for instance, tends to persist for many orders of magnitude longer than the other. Only one can eat material peanuts. Only one can be observed by several different people simultaneously, barring some very sophisticated instrumentation that might be developed in the future. Neither of them can necessarily fly, but if one is observed to fly (or talk, etc.), we know which one it must be.

I have no objection to your claim that the paranormal and the unknown forces of reality are part of many shamens' experience (I'm less certain about that being "universal"). Just as my dream elephant is part of my experience. All things paranormal seem, in fact, as far as I can tell, to be matters of various people's experience.

But having acknowledged that, as with the elephants, we can then ask about the properties of those experienced things. Can the shaman's experience of seeing animals by remote viewing help the tribe hunt? Yes! Hunting is an inherently uncertain venture requiring cooperation and some degree of enthusiasm, and hunters who have a shaman's assurance that game has been remote-viewed in some place or another are more likely to be able to work together on a course of action conducive to hunting success, whether or not the shaman's assurance is accurate. It's even more helpful if the shaman actually has an intuitive perception of the patterns of movement of game animals that, when elicited by the mental exercise or ritual of remote viewing, actually does produce better than chance accuracy of predicting where to find game.

Does any of this mean that the shaman can see physical game animals at a remote physical location without visual line of sight? No. No observation of the world to date requires a model in which that is the case. A shaman (or anyone at all) actually passing a test of remote viewing ability such as the JREF conducts on claims of paranormal ability would require such a model (and therefore the rethinking and recasting of a great many existing models), but the shaman's experience of remote viewing and the tribe's experience of it being helpful does not accomplish that, any more than my experience of seeing my dream elephant fire cannonballs from its trunk means that the elephants at the zoo can fire cannonballs from their trunks.

So, I don't really care if you call remote viewing, or other paranormal experiences, "real" or not. What matters is that properties you claim the things have, and whether there's evidence those claims are true. (Most rationalists, though, resist calling subjective experiences "real" because too many people assume a bundle of properties to follow automatically from them being called "real," which ain't necessarily so.) The properties of a shaman's remote viewing, to summarize the above, line up thus:

Is experienced: yes.
Can help the tribe hunt: yes.
Can locate game with better than chance reliability: maybe (if associated with shaman's ability to deduce or intuitively perceive patterns of game movement).
Can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision: no.

We can tell stories about shamans (or Jedi) who can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision, just as I can tell stories about a talking elephant that saved the circus from invading Mongol hordes by firing cannonballs from its trunk. They're stories, so their characters can have whatever properties the author wants to give them. That's not evidence, though, of any property of any other elephant in any other story, or zoo.
 

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