Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

Could we have phone service bouncing all over satellites without the special relativity theory you mentioned? Did Einstein think about cell phones at the time? Therefore even Einstein didn't know what his theories would end up predicting (somebody used his theory to predict the behavior) just as I said.

What's with not giving the Einsteins of this world enough credit?

More nonsense. We're talking about the testable predictions he DID make when he wrote his theories. Future technologies he didn't foresee have nothing to do with it.

The theory farsight is pushing doesn't make any predictions and therefore can't be tested, Einstein's theories included predictions that were tested. See the difference?

The only way farsight's or anyone else's theories can lead to future technologies is if the theories can be used, and that implies testability, as building a device that uses the theory by default also tests the theory. A theory that makes no predictions is both unconfirmable and useless.
 
a) The spatial extent of the atom wavefunction?

Unlimited, in line with its gravitational field.

Unlimited is right, but nothing to do with gravity. Rather, you can construct experiments where the wavefunction is compact or extended, as you please. If I shoot a beam of atoms through a vacuum chamber 6" in diameter, the wavefunction of the beam is confined to a region smaller than 6".

b) The size scale of the atom's internal structure?

In the above analogy, your left hand is circling your right hand at a distance of 5.29 × 10ˉ¹¹ m, and the circumference of your left hand is 2.42 x 10ˉ¹² m. The circumference of your right hand is 1.32 x 10 ˉ¹5. It's wobbling a little.

Except for your citation of the Van der Mark "electron radius", fine. You identified 5e-11m as a size scale associated with the atom itself, and you did not get confused by other physical quantities, like the fact that the atom wavefunction can be much larger than this.

c) The Compton wavelength of the whole atom?

You can define it as the photon wavelength equivalent to the mass od the hydrogen atom, which is a little less than the proton mass plus electron mass, but the whole atom doesn't really have a wavelength like the electron does.

Wrong. Whole atoms are seen to diffract, just like everything else, exhibiting a wave nature exactly like that of the electron. The relevant wavelength is called the de Broglie wavelength. (Compton was my typo/thinko)

Sorry, I don't know.

You're right, you dont. For example:

That's not a scalar quantity. The greyscale is just to show the twist. See vector fields for something you'll be more familiar with.

Your link goes to a vector plot, but one in which the streamlines are circular, not twisted. (The vaguely-visible "twist" is an artifact of the artistic choice to make longish arrows, not of the vector field. Note that at the *base* of any arrow the arrow is pointing straight circumferentially.)

Seriously, greyscale is by definition a scalar quantity. If your graph is not a graphical depiction of an actual scalar quantity, on some actual physical axes, then it's just a scribble that looks like a spiral. Seriously, is there any aspect of that plot which we interpret as actual data from an actual electron model? The number of spiral lines, their angle, the sinusoidal form of the dark/light variation? No? Do the darker bands represent regions of space where something is different than in the light bands? If so what? If not, why are they there? You have no idea, do you?

The only piece of physics we can derive from this plot is "Farsight has a mental picture of something (don't know what) being a spiral somehow (don't know in what sense)". You produced a graphic showing something being a spiral. Done. Congratulations on seven years of hard work.

No, think frame-dragging around a dynamical spinor. Think vorticial attraction and repulsion. Think cyclones. With no initial relative motion, two similar cyclones move apart, two opposite cyclones move together. It takes two to tango.

Those are different things. Can't you describe an electron?

They depict the frame dragging around a dynamical spinor. If you throw an electron through a solenoid, its path is helical because it's a dynamical spinor moving through non-isotropic space.

Your graph does not depict a solenoid, stop bringing up solenoids just because they're a random thing from physics that includes spirals.

You previously labeled this graph as showing "fields", which you derived from your idiosyncratic reading of Maxwell's and Faraday's words. Now suddenly it's "frame dragging", a general-relativistic effect Maxwell never knew about, doesn't occur in Van der Mark's crackpot paper, etc. etc.? I don't know which part of your prior discussion you were lying about, Farsight: were you lying about this not being your own theory? (It clearly is.) Were you lying about this being the electromagnetic field, applying Maxwell's unification to the radial E and circular B fields to obtain the spiral? (It clearly isn't.)

So they aren't point-particles, are they? Hoist by your own petard, ben.

No, QFT allows a point particle (in the standard sense I've explained) to have a magnetic moment. I believe this is true because I derived it on a blackboard in front of a roomful of 19-year-olds. The magnetic moment popped out of this derivation without requiring me to make the electron a non-point-particle (in the standard sense I've explained). You have not provided a counterargument to this derivation.

You're just quoting your disbelief over and over.

"Three pages of proof based on the Dirac Equation" is more convincing to me than "A random guy in Poole who doesn't know quantum mechanics doesn't believe it." You are welcome to learn some physics and find an error, if there is one, in my QFT-based conclusion.

The moot point is that the field concerned is the electromagnetic field, and you have to combine depictions of "the electric field" and "the magnetic field" to visualize it, whereafter you can understand it.

Did you combine depictions of the electric field and the magnetic field? Where? So far I have seen (a) three plots---a bullseye, some radial lines, and a spiral and (b) a greyscale drawing of a spiral. None of these plots were made using any input from Maxwell's Equations, none of them are "visualizations" of any quantity you can identify from those equations.

In fact, I think you're doing it backwards. You are pretending to start with Maxwell, then visualize something, then use the visualization to understand. In fact, you dreamed that you understood something---you had a daydream involving a spiral and a particle. You sought for a visualization that corresponded to the thing you thought you understood ("the important thing is it's a spiral like in my daydream"). Then you tried to scratch up a reason why this spiral had to have come from Maxwell's Equations. It's backwards.
 
No. Not at all. The electron Compton wavelength is 2.42 x 10ˉ¹² m. At wavelengths below the Compton limit, you're talking protons, not electrons. And if you throw around very-short wavelength photons, you're going to cause pair production. You won't see pairs that were always there, you're going to create them. TheMan is just trying to bamboozle you and get you to accept bad science. You can diffract electrons. They aren't point particles.

Bamboozle you say? Heck, if you don’t like or just don’t agree with what your own citation asserts then use some other citation. You may find yourself befuddling yourself less, but I doubt it.
 
Whole atoms are seen to diffract, just like everything else, exhibiting a wave nature exactly like that of the electron.

Not just whole atoms, the double slit experiment has been done with molecules as large as C60.
 
There's a difference between Einstein not forseeing all the applications his prediction would have, and Einstein not knowing that his prediction would hold true for every application anybody ever proposed.

Yes, so why hold farsight to a higher standard? He can't predict future applications at this time.

More nonsense. We're talking about the testable predictions he DID make when he wrote his theories. Future technologies he didn't foresee have nothing to do with it.

If future technologies use this electromagnetic stuff that you can get in on on the ground floor if you were more open-minded, would certainly have to do with it.
The theory farsight is pushing doesn't make any predictions and therefore can't be tested, Einstein's theories included predictions that were tested. See the difference?

Make any predictions -- yet. You see farsight isn't the prediction guy or even (as we know from Einstein's needs) the math guy. He is the guy that sees the beauty of another's work.
The only way farsight's or anyone else's theories can lead to future technologies is if the theories can be used, and that implies testability, as building a device that uses the theory by default also tests the theory. A theory that makes no predictions is both unconfirmable and useless.
I think the people reading this thread are in the best position to do just that after reading -- how pages are there in this thread? You guys are invested in this stuff. Certainly it can be made into a people mover of some sort if you can flesh out the details.

My degree is in marketing and I'll be the marketing guy but you science degree people need to stop nay saying and give me something tangible I can bring to a customer first.
 
...

If future technologies use this electromagnetic stuff that you can get in on on the ground floor if you were more open-minded, would certainly have to do with it.

...

You with your dreams of future technology based on electromagnetic stuff. It'll never work, I tells ya!
 
Originally Posted by Senex
...

If future technologies use this electromagnetic stuff that you can get in on on the ground floor if you were more open-minded, would certainly have to do with it.

...
Getting on the "ground floor" with Mr. Duffield would require a catastrophic tumble.
 
Make any predictions -- yet. You see farsight isn't the prediction guy or even [...] the math guy.
So, straight question, Mr Marketing: how can you tell what value Farsight's writing has, in terms of the physics?

He is the guy that sees the beauty of another's work.
Just so that I'm clear on this, Senex; from your perspective, all that's required - for you to accept that an idea has merit (in terms of physics) - is that it claims to see "the beauty of another's work"?
 
The electron Compton wavelength is 2.42 x 10ˉ¹² m. At wavelengths below the Compton limit, you're talking protons, not electrons.
Sorry, Farsight, but you can never have an electron with a Compton wavelength less than the Compton wavelength because it is constant for a particle :jaw-dropp!

The rest is just your fantasy about electrons containing photons which is physically impossible for the reasons that you know very well:
* There is no bound state of 2 photons.
* Photons have spin 1. Electrons have spin 1/2. There is no way that any combination of photons will add up to a spin of 1/2. (#1)
* Photons have no charge. Electrons are charged
* Photons have no rest mass. Electrons have rest mass.

#1 Unless someone is ignorant enough to ignore what the spin of an photon is and treat an photon as a tiny gyroscope. Then you can send this "photon" along a path and get any average spin < 1 that you like. That is how one of the awful papers you cite does it if I remember correctly.
 
No it isn't.
Farsight: An assertion that frame dragging only affects charged particles is total nonsense. Frame dragging affects all objects.
ETA: The electromagnetic field around an election is an electromagnetic field :eek:!
Gravitoelectromagnetism does not say that an EM field is "frame-dragged space".
Gravitoelectromagnetism, abbreviated GEM, refers to a set of formal analogies between the equations for electromagnetism and relativistic gravitation; specifically: between Maxwell's field equations and an approximation, valid under certain conditions, to the Einstein field equations for general relativity. Gravitomagnetism is a widely used term referring specifically to the kinetic effects of gravity, in analogy to the magnetic effects of moving electric charge. The most common version of GEM is valid only far from isolated sources, and for slowly moving test particles.
Gravitoelectromagnetism says that there is an analogy between an EM field and a gravitational field in quite restricted situations. It is used to describe objects in gravitational fields, not electrons.

Go and bring up more irrelevant topics, Farsight :jaw-dropp:
* Topological charge is nothing to do with charge! It is irrelevant.
* The neutron is made up of charged particles (quarks) and so has a magnetic moment. Standard and irrelevant to this thread physics
* Faraday rotation
In physics, the Faraday effect or Faraday rotation is a magneto-optical phenomenon, that is, an interaction between light and a magnetic field in a medium. The Faraday effect causes a rotation of the plane of polarization which is linearly proportional to the component of the magnetic field in the direction of propagation. Formally, it is a special case of gyroelectromagnetism obtained when the dielectric permittivity tensor is diagonal.[1]
is irrelevant.
 
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They depict the frame dragging around a dynamical spinor. ...
So it looks like Farsight is just spouting pseudo-scientific nonsense or is just ignorant about what a spinor is
In mathematics and physics, in particular in the theory of the orthogonal groups (such as the rotation or the Lorentz groups), a spinor /ˈspɪnər/ is an element of a complex vector space. Unlike spatial vectors, spinors only transform "up to a sign" under the full orthogonal group. This means that a 360 degree rotation transforms the numeric coordinates of a spinor into their negatives, and so it takes a rotation of 720 degrees to re-obtain the original values.
Spinors are mathematical objects. Nothing goes "around" them. And what is that word "dynamical" doing there?
Spinors do not appear in GR and have nothing to do with frame dragging.

ETA: What Farsight actually says about the image is
You depict E with radial lines of force, you depict B with concentric lines of force. To visualise that greater whole, the field caused by the electron itself, you combine the radial and concentric lines like this:
and he is mostly wrong. For an electron:
* E is depicted with radial lines of force (correct, Farsight)
* B is never depicted with concentric lines of force. B is always depicted as lines of force coming from one pole and arcing around to the other pole.
* You can never just add E and B.

There is the other grey-scale spirally thingy cartoon which so far seems to be a product of Farsight's imagination. Otherwise he would cite the equations that produced the image.
 
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Make any predictions -- yet. You see farsight isn't the prediction guy or even (as we know from Einstein's needs) the math guy. He is the guy that sees the beauty of another's work.

So let's divide up the tasks.

  • Farsight will post pictures of spirals and say they're beautiful.
  • People who know math and can make predictions will work out the details and see what the consequences are.

OK, we're done. Farsight's predictions have been made by the predictions people. Farsight's math has been done by the math people. His theory is false, it's failed every experimental test we can think of. What's next?

  • Farsight will post pictures of spirals and say they're beautiful.
  • People who know math and can make predictions will work out the details and see what the consequences are.
  • Farsight will post the same pictures again, but while complaining about how nobody understands them the way he does.

Lather, rinse, repeat. How long are we supposed to keep this up, Senex? Centuries?
 
You see farsight isn't the prediction guy or even (as we know from Einstein's needs) the math guy. He is the guy that sees the beauty of another's work.
Senex, in order to see the beauty of another's scientific work you have to know about the scientific work!
That is not Farsight who has not yet got past the third equation in one of Einstein's papers. W.D.Clinger summarized this almost 2 years ago (28th April 2012):
My counterarguments are based on Einstein's own words and math. For example:
Farsight admitted to being lost as soon as I used the notation of Einstein's equation (3). In Einstein's paper, that equation was followed by 72 more numbered equations and formulas, along with 115 that aren't numbered.

So Farsight understands at most 1% of the foundation of general relativity, as presented by Einstein. With so little knowledge of the foundations, Farsight's unsupported opinions on more advanced topics are worthless.
 
The highlighted assertion is certainly false, and the second part of the sentence may be false as well.
Whoops - you are right, I should have been more exact.
Spinors do not appear in the standard formalism of GR. You can essentially replace tensors with spinors to get a spinor formalism where spinors do have something to do with frame dragging.
 
* B is never depicted with concentric lines of force. B is always depicted as lines of force coming from one pole and arcing around to the other pole.

Not quite. One of Farsight's problems (which you didn't correct him on) is that the lines one draws to depict B are not lines of force, they are the field lines. The force that a B field applies to a charge is never along the field direction (and depend upon the velocity of the charge so it's not constant anyways), and the force that a B field applies to a magnetic dipole is only sometimes along the field direction.

You are correct, though, that you cannot add the B field and E field lines, and that the B field lines of a magnetic dipole are not concentric circles. I suspect he confused himself by drawing the B field lines of a long straight current-carrying wire when view along the axis of the wire, which are indeed concentric circles, but that doesn't resemble an electron.
 
As to combining the electric and magnetic fields, there's an interesting way to do it.

Maxwell's equations:
D.E = ρ
D.B = ρm
(D)x(B) - dE/dt = j
(D)x(E) + dB/dt = - jm
dρ/dt + D.j = 0
m/dt + D.jm = 0

where the subscripted m is for the magnetic-monopole charge and current density.

Take
F = E + i*B
ρ' = ρ + i*ρm
j' = j + i*jm

Then
D.F = ρ'
- dF/dt - i*(D)x(F) = j'

Maxwell's four equations become two equations.

Why does this happen? Going from 3+1 to dimensions coequal, F is the independent components of
(EM tensor) + i*(dual of EM tensor)

with an appropriate sign convention.

I must say that I find this mathematical structure most interesting.
 
Yes, so why hold farsight to a higher standard? He can't predict future applications at this time.
Nobody is asking Farsight to predict future applications. He is asked to produce predictions about physical consequences of his theory (that he claims is not his theory) that will show that it is a more accurate model of the world than conventional physics. If he cannot do this, his theory (that is not his theory) is worthless.

Several people have pointed out that his theory (that is not his theory) is contradicted by observations, so it seems it is not just worthless, but wrong.
 
...Several people have pointed out that his theory (that is not his theory) is contradicted by observations, so it seems it is not just worthless, but wrong.
Observations back up electron models proposed by the likes of Williamson and van der Mark. You can make electrons and positrons out of light waves in pair production. You can diffract an electron. It's got a magnetic moment. In atomic orbitals electrons "exist as standing waves". The Einstein-de Haas effect "demonstrates that spin angular momentum is indeed of the same nature as the angular momentum of rotating bodies as conceived in classical mechanics". And electron-positron annihilation results in light waves again. The wave nature of matter is beyond doubt.

And yet "several people" insist that the electron is a point-particle, and then claim that what I say is contradicted by observations, when it isn't. It's like talking to creationists who dismiss patent evidence.
 
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