• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

No it doesn't.
Yes, the science does state that pair production happens, Farsight :eye-poppi!
It is not a tautology no matter how many times that you claim it.

I'm not presenting some alternative to QED, I'm saying photons interact with photons, and that people who tell you that QED says they don't, are wrong.
And every one here agrees with you, Farsight: photons interact with photons.
What you still do not understand is that QED states that photons interact with photons because of the virtual particles that you assert do not exist.
So you what you are presenting is that QED is wrong.

Huh? ...snipped argument from personal incredibility and ignorance....
Yes, Farsight:
Virtual particles break none of the rules of physics.
The Heisenberg Uncertainly Principle (a rule of physics :jaw-dropp) allows short-term "borrowing" of mass, energy and momentum.
Conservation of mass? No, the initial and final states of the QM system conserve mass.
Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles
Conservation of energy? No, the initial and final states of the QM system conserve energy.
Conservation of momentum? No, the initial and final states of the QM system conserve momentum.
Do they go faster than light as to contradict relativity or causality? No.
 
See this for example:
.
That repeated straw man argument that "Virtual particles aren't particles" is only good for ignorant people who think that virtual particles are real particles, Farsight :eek:.
They are a consequence of applying perturbation theory to QFT - real particles act as if they interact via virtual particles.

See this for example where I have highlighted the virtual particle: Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles
"In section 2, the virtual photon's plane wave is seemingly created everywhere in space at once, and destroyed all at once. Therefore, the interaction can happen no matter how far the interacting particles are from each other. Quantum field theory is supposed to properly apply special relativity to quantum mechanics. Yet here we have something that, at least at first glance, isn't supposed to be possible in special relativity: the virtual photon can go from one interacting particle to the other faster than light!"
 
@sol:

As someone who is simply trying to follow this discussion and understand as much as I can of what's being said, the distinction between direct and indirect may admittedly not be the best way of explaining the problem under discussion, but what seems to me to be meaningful here is that the photon-photon interactions only happen in particular (and somewhat difficult to create experimentally) circumstances. Particularly (if I understand correctly), at certain energy levels. The explanation for that, as far as I can tell, is that the photon-photon interactions are mediated by virtual particles, and the interaction between virtual electron-positron pairs and photons is dependent upon the energy that the photon carries.

So the mechanism by which photons interact (and the mathematics the is able to make very precise predictions of when and how they interact) is dependent upon virtual particles.

As I understand you, virtual particles are part of what photons are. I can understand that as making perfect sense, but in Farsight's view virtual particles have nothing to do with how photons interact, and he seems to be saying that since you can see such interactions in a photon-photon collider, that demonstrates that there's no virtual particles involved in that interaction.
 
...As I understand you, virtual particles are part of what photons are. I can understand that as making perfect sense, but in Farsight's view virtual particles have nothing to do with how photons interact, and he seems to be saying that since you can see such interactions in a photon-photon collider, that demonstrates that there's no virtual particles involved in that interaction.
That's not my view. I've said the photon is a field variation, the electron's field is what it is, and virtual particles are field quanta. See for example this post where I said virtual photons and virtual electrons are but "chunks" of field rather than actual particles.

Phunk: they aren't short-lived real particles that pop in and out of existence like magic.
 
Last edited:
As someone who is simply trying to follow this discussion and understand as much as I can of what's being said, the distinction between direct and indirect may admittedly not be the best way of explaining the problem under discussion, but what seems to me to be meaningful here is that the photon-photon interactions only happen in particular (and somewhat difficult to create experimentally) circumstances. Particularly (if I understand correctly), at certain energy levels. The explanation for that, as far as I can tell, is that the photon-photon interactions are mediated by virtual particles, and the interaction between virtual electron-positron pairs and photons is dependent upon the energy that the photon carries.
The real problem is the idea of "interact". In the world of particle physics, the word does not have exactly the same meaning, with all the same connotations, that it does in most of everyday life or even everyday physics.

Quantum Electrodynamics stands at the end of a long road of work and investigation; it incorporates results about how certain types of what we call "forces" work and categorizes interactions as interactions through these forces. Photons are associated with a certain type of force as the mediators of that force and thus they are associated with a certain class of interactions; within this class there are no interactions that include interactions where the properties of two or more photons and only two or more photons are directly involved in the nature of some physical event.

When one looks to other classes of interactions, one can find ones where there are physical events that rely only on the properties of two or more photons, but these rely on classes of interactions that do not involve photons alone, classes where the forces are mediated by other particles. These events, though they rely on the properties of the photons, involve the mediation of the properties of other sorts of forces than those associated (directly or solely) with photons.

The details of these interactions are mostly inferred from the observations of interactions and the relationships that one can observe in these interactions. Some of the details are suspected to be wrong. Some of the details are known to be wrong. So determining just how complicated interactions, like the photon-mediated-by-other-forces interactions, are important to explore in isolation, if possible. Hence the importance of this collider mechanism that should encourage these interactions for study, if only to see if they work as predicted.
I can understand that as making perfect sense, but in Farsight's view virtual particles have nothing to do with how photons interact, and he seems to be saying that since you can see such interactions in a photon-photon collider, that demonstrates that there's no virtual particles involved in that interaction.
One thing that Farsight writes is that photons interact directly with themselves in some unknown way that makes them produce all the known particles in the universe. He claims that all matter is photons trapped in some kind of self-interaction. While quantum electrodynamics stands at the end of a lot of hard work and investigation, it is clear that Farsight's position hasn't changed much in about a decade and that his hardest work has gone into denial, a refusal to look into relevant mathematics, and insults.

A recent change to Farsight's position is his claim that the recent paper on photon-photon collisions is somehow evidence for his theory. The recent paper is a completely theoretical paper that details how one should go about building a machine to create photon interactions that are mediated by other forces. So there is not yet such a machine, there is no data about such interactions, and the authors of the paper explicitly reject Farsight's basic premise. This last bit is not new: most of the citations that Farsight provides are from authors and papers that provide positions and evidence contrary to Farsight's claims. Farsight is relying on the use of the word "interaction" in the paper to support the idea that scientists believe in "interaction" in the sort of common-place way that Farsight wishes to use it rather than learn the relevant physics.

It is important to realize that this is part of a pattern of behaviour that Farsight exhibits, that there is a reason that he is speaking the way that he does about things. To not have this information is to miss out important information about the content of the arguments offered.
 
Phunk: they aren't short-lived real particles that pop in and out of existence like magic.
What plunk actually said, Farsight:
The word "virtual" is not a statement that they don't exist. They aren't fully particles, but they are real things that actually exist that can become particles if given more energy. They are an extremely well proven phenomena that lead to predictions that have been observed, like the mass of the top quark, the lamb shift, the kasimir effect, vaccuum polarization, etc.
No "virtual particles are real particles" in there.
An explicit statement that virtual particles are not fully real which is what everyone here is stating.

And of course the usual science I do not understand is magic :rolleyes:!
 
What plunk actually said, Farsight:

No "virtual particles are real particles" in there.
An explicit statement that virtual particles are not fully real which is what everyone here is stating.

And of course the usual science I do not understand is magic :rolleyes:!

Actually I wasn't saying they weren't fully real, I was saying they were real, just not particles.
 
Actually I wasn't saying they weren't fully real, I was saying they were real, just not particles.
Farsight seems to get confused anytime people miss out the implied "real" part of "real particles".
Maybe Farsight would understand "virtual particles exist, are particles (have mass, charge, position, etc.) and are not real particles".
 
Oh yes you did, in this post. You said this:

"Indeed, and that's why vaccuum polarization exists, because the virtual particles constantly popping in and out of existance have real properties."

See if you can find the phrase "real particles" in there.
 
Oh yes you did, in this post. You said this:

"Indeed, and that's why vaccuum polarization exists, because the virtual particles constantly popping in and out of existance have real properties."
Oh dear, Farsight, the ignorance is showing :rolleyes:.
Virtual particles have mass. Mass is a real, existing property.
Virtual particles have charge. Charge is a real, existing property.
Virtual particles have spin. Spin is a real, existing property.
etc.
A virtual particle is a particle that has most of the properties of a real particle but is not a real particle.
 
There's another problem that I find in Farsight's theories. He claims that only stable particles are truly elementary, and that short-lived particles are not really particles but "events".

Thus, a proton is elementary but a neutron is not, and an electron is elementary but a muon is not.

That's contrary to what most particle physicists would consider "elementary". Decaying has nothing to do with being elementary, but is instead related to a particle's interactions and what conservation laws will allow.

An electron is stable because there are no charged particles less massive than it. A muon is unstable because it is capable of turning into an electron and two neutrinos with some energy remaining. Etc.


What makes a particle "elementary" is a matter of definition, it seems, sort of like what makes a celestial object a "planet". Remember the demotion of Pluto a few years back. An elementary particle is like what an atom originally was, something that could not be split any further. Hadrons seemed like that for a long time, until they were discovered to be composed of quarks and gluons. However, no evidence has emerged of internal structure of electrons and light quarks, despite being subjected to collision energies and momenta many times their rest masses. The LEP collided electrons at about 100 GeV per electron, about 200,000 electron rest masses. The LHC collides up and down quarks with a similar multiplier of rest mass. Yet neither accelerator's experiments have found evidence of internal structure of those particles.
 
There's another problem that I find in Farsight's theories. He claims that only stable particles are truly elementary, and that short-lived particles are not really particles but "events".
Huh? I've referred to Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? I haven't said the electron is "truly elementary". And by the way, I'm not some my-theory guy. You're the one who dismisses Einstein and peddles the multiverse. I'm skeptical of that. Hence as you are to Anders Lindman, so am I to you.

Thus, a proton is elementary but a neutron is not, and an electron is elementary but a muon is not.
Again huh? Where are you getting this stuff from? I've referred to TQFT which relates to knot theory, and I've likened stable particles with unequivocal mass to knots. Somewhere along the line I've likened a muon to a slip knot. I've also said very-short-lived particles are more like an event, but for something that lasts 10-25 seconds and has never been directly detected, what's the problem?

That's contrary to what most particle physicists would consider "elementary". Decaying has nothing to do with being elementary, but is instead related to a particle's interactions and what conservation laws will allow.
I avoid the use of the word "elementary". Your argument is a straw-man argument.

An electron is stable because there are no charged particles less massive than it. A muon is unstable because it is capable of turning into an electron and two neutrinos with some energy remaining. Etc.
Pah. That's a non-answer. The electron is stable for a reason. And you didn't give it.

What makes a particle "elementary" is a matter of definition...
Only an elementary particle like an electron or a positron can't be particularly "elementary" if you can create it in pair production and destroy it in annihilation.
 
Huh? I've referred to Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? I haven't said the electron is "truly elementary". And by the way, I'm not some my-theory guy. You're the one who dismisses Einstein and peddles the multiverse. I'm skeptical of that. Hence as you are to Anders Lindman, so am I to you.
Clearly the closest person here to Anders Lindman is you, Farsight, since you are the one presenting a hoax (as you present ayou cannot actually do physics, as you sometime admit) and you also present conspiracy theories (e.g., that Einstein had a theory of relativity that he only presented in certain public lectures that the community of scientists suppressed; e.g., that the entire body of cosmologists suppress research into alternatives to dark matter). On both these counts, you offer insults to the scientific community with laughable evidence.

It is also not correct to say that you are skeptical: you have taken a dogmatic position against certain positions you do not like. You have admitted that you cannot possibly do the mathematics to evaluate multiverse theories; you are attacking them without review.
 
And by the way, I'm not some my-theory guy.

I beg to differ:

Again huh? Where are you getting this stuff from? I've referred to TQFT which relates to knot theory,

"The electron is a photon in a loop" is not a tenet of TQFT; it's your theory which has no defenders other than you yourself. (ETA: And maybe Williamson and/or Van der Mark, but the fact that you've spent 7 years on the Internet as the only advocate of something you found on ViXrA and sitting around Poole working out the details with a marker and a Ping Pong ball ... yes, it's your theory.)

Somewhere along the line I've likened a muon to a slip knot.

Hey look! More ideas straight from your imagination which are supported nowhere in QFT, TQFT, knot theory, string theory, electromagnetism, or the actual study of muons.

Seriously, you think this is evidence that you're "not some my-theory guy"?

The electron is stable for a reason. And you didn't give it.

Yes he did.

Only an elementary particle like an electron or a positron can't be particularly "elementary" if you can create it in pair production and destroy it in annihilation.

Sure it can. Dirac worked out how over 80 years ago. You're just unable to understand it. Not that this is surprising! Most people who haven't taken a quantum mechanics course don't understand quantum mechanics. You are one of them. Most people who haven't taken a quantum mechanics course are unable to visualize how quantum mechanics' weird-sounding claims could possibly work. You are one of them. Congratulations?
 
Last edited:
Another search-result link. Try again.

I haven't said the electron is "truly elementary".
I was trying to puzzle out what you are claiming.

And by the way, I'm not some my-theory guy.
Irrelevant. Farsight, you are the only one I know who puts forth your complete package of claims. Your scriptural exegesis is not counterevidence, since the Prophets of Physics you quote had not shared your beliefs.

You're the one who dismisses Einstein
Science does not operate like religion. Albert Einstein was not an inspired prophet. Even worse, you dismiss Einstein on space-time unity and the like.

and peddles the multiverse.
Ad hominem. Can't you think of anything better?

I've referred to TQFT which relates to knot theory, and I've likened stable particles with unequivocal mass to knots.
Pure hand waving. TQFT does not state that an electron must be a circling photon.

Somewhere along the line I've likened a muon to a slip knot.
Don't make me laugh.

I've also said very-short-lived particles are more like an event, but for something that lasts 10-25 seconds and has never been directly detected, what's the problem?
Splitting hairs. One can say something similar about atoms, and in fact, some notable physicists were skeptical about atoms for that reason in the late 19th cy.

(why electrons are stable)
Pah. That's a non-answer. The electron is stable for a reason. And you didn't give it.
Whatever that reason is supposed to be.

Only an elementary particle like an electron or a positron can't be particularly "elementary" if you can create it in pair production and destroy it in annihilation.
By that argument, photons are even less "elementary", since they can be created and destroyed with even fewer constraints.

Creation and destruction of photons happens all the time in great quantity. A cellphone creates radio-frequency photons, a microwave oven creates microwave photons, a broiler creates infrared photons, you yourself also create infrared photons, a light bulb creates visible-light photons, a black-light lamp creates ultraviolet photons, an X-ray machine creates X-ray photons, and nuclear reactors and cosmic rays create gamma-ray photons. See if you can estimate how many they typically create per unit time.
 
...
By that argument, photons are even less "elementary", since they can be created and destroyed with even fewer constraints.

Creation and destruction of photons happens all the time in great quantity. A cellphone creates radio-frequency photons, a microwave oven creates microwave photons, a broiler creates infrared photons, you yourself also create infrared photons, a light bulb creates visible-light photons, a black-light lamp creates ultraviolet photons, an X-ray machine creates X-ray photons, and nuclear reactors and cosmic rays create gamma-ray photons. See if you can estimate how many they typically create per unit time.

I can predict Mr. Duffield's response to this. Photons are never created -- they are trapped and exist in loops, nodes, standing waves, etc. in molecules, atoms and as the constituents of other particles. There is no need for QFT equations to demonstrate this since ping pong balls and a good marker provide all the evidence we need...
 
Which means it isn't my theory doesn't it? As it happens the general idea goes back to Thomson and Tait. See On Vortex Particles by David St John.
Given that you cannot possibly follow the mathematics (and hence the physics) in the papers that you provide references to, what you are presenting is not their work, but a non sequitor attempt at support for your own theory in which you invoke absolute time, photons as the sole existing particle, and your own special form of relativity that, since you lack the ability in physics, has not yet reached the stage of being anything like a testable theory.

What is interesting is how you persist in the lie that you are merely presenting the scientific theory of others. As many people have pointed out to you, the papers that you cite are not relevant to the whole of your claims and are quite often not relevant to the claim you are making at the time you cite them. (The recent photon interaction discussion being a spectacular example of deliberate lying about the nature of a citation; the papers clearly had nothing to do with your theory, clearly contradicted your theory, and this was plain from reading the public news stories that you provided citations to.)
And by the way, your physics knowledge is so scant I don't believe you're a physicist. No way.
I can understand how you would be motivated to insult the ability of another, since you seemingly have no real way of defending your positions. Sure, you are able to cherry-pick quotations and find articles that seem, from a quick read of their abstract, to agree with your position; additionally, you are tied in to the crackpot community, so you know how to find a crackpot paper that says whatever you would like for the moment. And since you are playing the role here of a "physics expert", you need to be able to have some way to assert dominance over others.

Still, it is strange that you claim such expertise here when on other forums you have admitted that you cannot actually do any physics. Additionally, your attempts in this very thread have been fraught with basic errors, both mathematical and factual.

Why, after at least ten years of making statements about physics have you not learned any physics? Why do you, who admittedly cannot do physics, claim to be an expert? Why, despite your supposed expertise, do you not claim your own quilted-together theory as your own?
 

Back
Top Bottom