Relationships and religion

[ingoa]

For me believing in god(s) is as rediculous as believing in homeopathy or voodoo.

I had a girlfriend that was very strong into this kind of crap. She had some health problems, which she treated with homeopathic stuff and also going to a chiropractic. I always advised her to consult a "real" doc.

She knew that I didn't support her views on some things, but I always said: "well it's your decision and your health". It went down very rapidly. She told me that she always had the impression that I would be laughing at her. And I had to restrain myself not to tell her "told you so" when another treatment had failed. At the end she didn't believe that I take her seriously. And I was annoyed about complaints...

On the other hand I had a girlfriend who went to church every Sunday and never tried to convince me. But that (church going) quickly faded as soon as she left the influence of her family.... Which was probable as least partially due to my influence.

I guess that people who have too different views will have a bad time in the long run. Unless one (or both) reduce the differences somewhat.

 

[Swishy McJackass]

I have to agree with Cleopatra. Differences in religion can be a big deal. My wife and I got married about a year and a half ago, both Roman Catholic (though my version was extremely liberal). About 8 months ago, I began to question the faith, and not long afterward, gave it up entirely. I knew that this would cause some tension, but I had to tell my wife.

That's when the excriment hit the fan.

All of a sudden, she won't have kids with an atheist, and I somehow don't love her as much as she loves me, since I don't have a love for god as well. Many arguments ensued, along with many nights on the couch. We're at a standstill now, basically because we don't discuss the matter. I think I told her something about how I would attempt the "Catholic thing" again, and we've been going to mass together. Ok, so I caved, but I really don't want to lose my wife. She brings up divorce at times, but I tell her that will never happen. Eventually, I have to be honest with her, and I have to face the fact that she probably will want to leave me over such a thing. Compromise just doesn't seem like an option.

So to sum it all up, I wish I had really thought out my faith (or lack of) before I got married.

 

[Hexxenhammer]

When I was dating my wife, I knew she was Catholic and she knew I was an atheist. But she was pretty much lapsed, and religious in a very liberal way. We could both deal with these differences and we didn't argue about them. It was strained when we got married for both of us because of how Catholic her family was. We were basically bending over backwards to make sure we could have proper Catholic wedding. But I was fine with it because it was her family, not her, that the pressure was coming from. Once it was over, it was over and we could go back to the way we were before. If this same pressure for a proper catholic wedding had been coming from my fiance, it would have never happened because it would have meant that she wanted me to go against what I strongly believed. Which would mean she didn't respect my thoughts. Why would I or anyone else be involved with someone that didn't respect their thoughts?

If your significant other doesn't respect your beliefs, either way, you shouldn't be together. It's a big deal, and you're not likely to change the other person's mind.

 

[Finella]

Wow, this is a huuuuuge subject. But a worthy one.

First, inasmuch as you, RussDull, want her to accept you for your athiesm, she wants you to accept her. Let's think about the psychology of religion: it's all about feeling loved and accepted. So, in her view, there is necessarily a link between your rejection of her faith and her feeling rejected entirely by you. It's inseperable.

Second: obviously the sneakiness aspect of trying to convert this woman to athiesm in this light is not going to be met with enthusiasm. Likely she has religious friends who are plotting to make you religious. This is not the road to take if you want to keep the relationship going.

Third: so should you keep the relationship going? That's up to how much you and she want to work at it. It's not all about you. One thing that I know I had to work out myself in this kind of situation is that my faith represented the ultimate Love; when my partner did not acknowledge that source of love, I couldn't understand how he could love at all. I had to work through it and accept him for himself, in all his faults and weaknesses. And thus I wasn't carrying all the baggage of past family roles and crap into the relationship anymore -- it was just about him and me. We still talk about God, and yes, I still hope he may believe someday, but both of us concede to each other that we have no way of really knowing what the whole God thing is about. But that's not my primary concern anymore -- my primary concern is that I love him.

So it's not so much about conversion of faith, it's about the ability to accept each other, as human, as you are. If that makes sense.

---,---'--{@

 

[Cleopatra]

Finella

I was intrigued by your post

Especially by this part :

when my partner did not acknowledge that source of love, I couldn't understand how he could love at all. I had to work through it and accept him for himself, in all his faults and weaknesses.

In another thread you we could debate the source of all but my main argument at least in my case was that this God of Love doesn't require us to love "theoritically".

He expects us to show the love we feel for our fellow human beings with our actions.

A fair and just person who never harms his fellow human beings is in the position to love in a very Christian manner even if he declares an atheist.

What does it matter what the other believes as long as he acts the way your religion dictates?

 

[Finella]

In another thread you we could debate the source of all but my main argument at least in my case was that this God of Love doesn't require us to love "theoritically".

He expects us to show the love we feel for our fellow human beings with our actions.

A fair and just person who never harms his fellow human beings is in the position to love in a very Christian manner even if he declares an atheist.

What does it matter what the other believes as long as he acts the way your religion dictates?

Well, exactly. I don't think we need even get into the "source of love" issue, because there is no way to definitively know that. But we do know that we love. And yes, it is strange, but because of my faith I couldn't comprehend how my partner could love me without God being involved in that. It was quite painful, but I had to work out why it mattered so much to me; and then I discovered that whether or not God is Love, I receive love fully from my partner in a very accepting way. And that is all I need or want from him, really.

Ultimately our values are very much the same, we otherwise have very similar feelings about religion except one believes and one doesn't. So in the end, we're actually very compatible.
So that's how I look at it.

 

[Scoobmaster]

Great topic (and one I am personally interested in)

I can sympathize with Swishy. My wife was raised Baptist and is very religious. I was "converted" and attended her church when we were dating. A few years after we were married in 1995, I was baptized in the church we were attending (we both also became active "members" of the church.)
Like many of the members participating in the forums here, the rational/logical part of me started questioning many things. To make a long story short - my faith crumbled and I no longer am a "believer". After the birth of my son over two years ago, we have not attended church (my wife brings it up every now and then). We had some discussions about my new "lack of faith" (she seemed VERY angry and apalled at first, but has seemed to accept it now). We sort of mutually agreed not to discuss such things and respect each other's beliefs for now.

We both love each other dearly and have so many interests in common that this in no way changes my feelings for her and our marriage remains strong. Yet, I cannot help but wonder what may arise from this difference in the future (especially when my son gets older). Also, her family is VERY religious where mine is not.

I would appreciate any wisdom from other forum members who have been or are currently in this situation.

 

[triadboy]

Second: obviously the sneakiness aspect of trying to convert this woman to athiesm in this light is not going to be met with enthusiasm.

There shouldn't be any 'sneakiness' involved. The Agnostic/Atheist postion utilizes common sense, facts, and logic.

The religious postion clings to faith.

Sometimes an open discussion opens eyes. I think Russdill should lay everything out on the table. When she realizes her entire belief system is based on something someone else said happened, she may realize the myth. When you have a religion founded upon a talking snake - it will crumble.

 

[cbish]

Ingoa wrote:

I had a girlfriend that was very strong into this kind of crap. She had some health problems, which she treated with homeopathic stuff and also going to a chiropractic. I always advised her to consult a "real" doc.

I was going to mention this earlier. It seems people with a high sense of spirituality express it in other aspects of life other than religion. It seems that people who have an Idealisitic philosophy tend to be anti-science. Science tends to make their belief system look bad. So, you may see alot of homeopathy and quackery.

Again, what are you willing to tolerate and for how long?

 

[Faithkills]

Dump her. She's not going to understand your position or come around to your's..

DO NO SUCH THING!

What is it so necessary that one have their ideas mirrorred by their partner? Is that all she offers?

Now if she's a prig about it that's another thing.. but if she just happens to be a believer let her be. Don't try to convert her either.

Think it through.. do you feel more happy for not believing there's a god and heaven and eternal life?

If you love her are you sure you want her to bear that also?

If she comes around on her own that's one thing, if she asks you questions be honest.

But think this all the way through and follow all the consequences. Even assuming your understanding of the nature of the universe is correct do you really want to share that with someone you love?

The truth is chrisitanity is a very pleasant and comforting fiction and at a personal level usually harmless (in the US anyway). What juice do you get from actively disabusing her of that fiction?

The ironic thing is the woman I love was a staunch catholic, and I encouraged her to stay that way. But when all the pedophilia stuff came out she asked questions sometimes and my answers were maybe too candid.. the upshot is that well while it is edifying that my assessment of her intellect and integrity was correct, it is small comfort to me, or her, that she has lost her belief.

I think in retrospect if I had perhaps faux tried to "convert" her that her natural resistence to coercion might have headed it off. But I respected her too much to try to trick her into staying what I thought would make her most happy, and to be honest she was so deep in I didn't think she would dig herself out.

FK

 

[Finella]

Triadboy, *points*

I wouldn't be so radical. I believe in people. You could at least try, if you think she might be the woman of your life. Perhaps you will have to pretend you are actually buying her arguments and start thinking about god. It will be easier this way to draw her out of it, since she will not be anymore so defensive. But this depends on your level of tolerance and how far are you ready to go in order to make something out of all this.

This is sneaky. I didn't suggest this tactic, someone else did. And, depending on RussDill's gf, "laying it all out on the table" will not necessarily convince her he is right. Whether it does or doesn't, it doesn't matter; it's where the priorities are in both of their lives, whether their values are ultimately compatible. If RussDill is going to look at her every day and say, "Gee, she's such a bimbo, she believes in God," or if she's going to always think "Oh, man, he will never ever understand or love me because he refuses to believe in God," then I'd say there's going to be problems, and it'll be hard to work out; not impossible, but hard.

---,--'--{@

 

[Cleopatra]

DO NO SUCH THING!

What is it so necessary that one have their ideas mirrorred by their partner? Is that all she offers?

The problem with those that are that religious is that eventually they turn everything, every discussion, every problem of the common life, every disagreement into a discussion about Religion.

They name Religion a fundamental truth in their Life around of which turns everything else.

 

[Faithkills]

I think that's like the claim that athiests are religious zealots.

Some are, but I don't think most are.

There is a deep unselfrecognized sense of hypocrisy that I think most american cristians have that allows them to take the good (eternal life, heaven, soul) and gloss over the bad and the stuff they don't like. For example believers who know some history of religion undertand that the coda of religious literature was written by men and further the selection was ratified in a political process. But somehow god made that selection work the "right" way and the bible is still sacrosanct.. at least the parts they like.

I think this hypocrisy is actually emotionally healthy in a way. It's very pragmatic.

I understand it's intellectually distasteful to some of us, but intellectual rigor has it's own practical pitfalls.

A lot of the believers that post here are selfrighteous progs but I think that people like that are in the minority. Or at least there's enough practical hippocrits out there that radical believers are not a problem except politically.

FK

 

[triadboy]

Triadboy, *points*
Whether it does or doesn't, it doesn't matter; it's where the priorities are in both of their lives, whether their values are ultimately compatible.

This problem Russdill is having is not on the radar screen with my wife and me.

Our priority problem is: I like the toilet roll positioned so the sheets roll over the top and fall in front. She likes it to fall down behind! Is that idiotic or what?! We came up with a solution early in our marriage:

"Whomever changes the roll determines the toilet roll position for the life of that roll...So let it be written...So let it be done!"

Perhaps Russdill could do a toilet/God compromise too?

 

[RussDill]

For me believing in god(s) is as rediculous as believing in homeopathy or voodoo.

Not in my opinion. A belief in homeopathy or voodoo has mountains of evidence against it. Someone must ignore the evidence to believe in these things. Most gods unfortunetly, cannot be disproven.

I had a girlfriend that was very strong into this kind of crap. She had some health problems, which she treated with homeopathic stuff and also going to a chiropractic. I always advised her to consult a "real" doc.

practically everyone I dated has been like this to some degree. One ordered boob pills, another went for the herbal remedies, another believes in astrology and acupucture.

She knew that I didn't support her views on some things, but I always said: "well it's your decision and your health". It went down very rapidly. She told me that she always had the impression that I would be laughing at her. And I had to restrain myself not to tell her "told you so" when another treatment had failed. At the end she didn't believe that I take her seriously. And I was annoyed about complaints...

ya, my herbal gf once convinced me to take echinacea. "It can't hurt anything, take it for me, even if it doesn't do anything for you, I'll still be happier" Ya, it took me nearly a week to figure out I was somewhat allergic to the stuff.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/16/1625_50916

 

[RussDill]

All of a sudden, she won't have kids with an atheist, and I somehow don't love her as much as she loves me, since I don't have a love for god as well. Many arguments ensued, along with many nights on the couch. We're at a standstill now, basically because we don't discuss the matter. I think I told her something about how I would attempt the "Catholic thing" again, and we've been going to mass together. Ok, so I caved, but I really don't want to lose my wife. She brings up divorce at times, but I tell her that will never happen. Eventually, I have to be honest with her, and I have to face the fact that she probably will want to leave me over such a thing. Compromise just doesn't seem like an option.
[/B]

It might be helpful to point out all the things in the bible you *do* agree with and that you do think are important. Many of these things are likely the things that she cares about most when it comes to kids. A lot of people are under the misconception that athiests have no morals. Maybe its just putting off the inevitable though.

 

[RussDill]

Triadboy, *points*



This is sneaky. I didn't suggest this tactic, someone else did. And, depending on RussDill's gf, "laying it all out on the table" will not necessarily convince her he is right. Whether it does or doesn't, it doesn't matter; it's where the priorities are in both of their lives, whether their values are ultimately compatible. If RussDill is going to look at her every day and say, "Gee, she's such a bimbo, she believes in God," or if she's going to always think "Oh, man, he will never ever understand or love me because he refuses to believe in God," then I'd say there's going to be problems, and it'll be hard to work out; not impossible, but hard.

---,--'--{@

See, this is where it all got started in the first place. I grew up in a christian family that went to church every sunday, I went out all the time with the people my age, etc. I always unconciously pretended. Until someone I loved asked me straight up whether or not I believed in god. I had to think about it, and the answer ended up being no.

 

[RussDill]

Wow, this is a huuuuuge subject. But a worthy one.

First, inasmuch as you, RussDull, want her to accept you for your athiesm, she wants you to accept her. Let's think about the psychology of religion: it's all about feeling loved and accepted. So, in her view, there is necessarily a link between your rejection of her faith and her feeling rejected entirely by you. It's inseperable.

This rings very true. That I do not have a blind faith in a higher power seems to be a rejection of her.

Second: obviously the sneakiness aspect of trying to convert this woman to athiesm in this light is not going to be met with enthusiasm. Likely she has religious friends who are plotting to make you religious. This is not the road to take if you want to keep the relationship going.

This, I don't get. I think even if my explainations of the way I think they way I do don't result in a restructuring of her view of the world, I would hope that it would lead to an increased understanding of mine.

Third: so should you keep the relationship going? That's up to how much you and she want to work at it. It's not all about you. One thing that I know I had to work out myself in this kind of situation is that my faith represented the ultimate Love; when my partner did not acknowledge that source of love, I couldn't understand how he could love at all. I had to work through it and accept him for himself, in all his faults and weaknesses. And thus I wasn't carrying all the baggage of past family roles and crap into the relationship anymore -- it was just about him and me. We still talk about God, and yes, I still hope he may believe someday, but both of us concede to each other that we have no way of really knowing what the whole God thing is about. But that's not my primary concern anymore -- my primary concern is that I love him.

I like this ending a lot. BTW, don't get faith, and blind faith confused. Blind faith is believing that Matt Daemon loves you. Faith is believing your boyfriend/husband loves you.

So it's not so much about conversion of faith, it's about the ability to accept each other, as human, as you are. If that makes sense.

---,---'--{@

 

[RussDill]

There shouldn't be any 'sneakiness' involved. The Agnostic/Atheist postion utilizes common sense, facts, and logic.

The religious postion clings to faith.

Sometimes an open discussion opens eyes. I think Russdill should lay everything out on the table. When she realizes her entire belief system is based on something someone else said happened, she may realize the myth. When you have a religion founded upon a talking snake - it will crumble.

This is unfortunately not how female emotions work. Especially when such answers as, "Don't worry, we'll all understand when we get to heaven" is seen as a valid answer

 

[RussDill]

DO NO SUCH THING!

What is it so necessary that one have their ideas mirrorred by their partner? Is that all she offers?

I agree with this

Now if she's a prig about it that's another thing.. but if she just happens to be a believer let her be. Don't try to convert her either.

She tries to be understanding, but is very tied up in her emotional links to religion

Think it through.. do you feel more happy for not believing there's a god and heaven and eternal life?

yes actually, its a lot less stressfull. Many religions don't even have these concepts

If you love her are you sure you want her to bear that also?

If she comes around on her own that's one thing, if she asks you questions be honest.

But think this all the way through and follow all the consequences. Even assuming your understanding of the nature of the universe is correct do you really want to share that with someone you love?

The truth is chrisitanity is a very pleasant and comforting fiction and at a personal level usually harmless (in the US anyway). What juice do you get from actively disabusing her of that fiction?

harmless? harmless? Tell that to the homosexual teen that kills himself because he feels that god hates him and he will never be accepted. Chirstianity is based on an IN group and an OUT group. A mixture of pity, fear, and distance must always befall the OUT group, and anyone in the OUT group must rightly feel guilt and emptyness because they have strayed.

The ironic thing is the woman I love was a staunch catholic, and I encouraged her to stay that way. But when all the pedophilia stuff came out she asked questions sometimes and my answers were maybe too candid.. the upshot is that well while it is edifying that my assessment of her intellect and integrity was correct, it is small comfort to me, or her, that she has lost her belief.

I think in retrospect if I had perhaps faux tried to "convert" her that her natural resistence to coercion might have headed it off. But I respected her too much to try to trick her into staying what I thought would make her most happy, and to be honest she was so deep in I didn't think she would dig herself out.

FK

definately, always respect the intellect of the one you are with.