Reincarnation: Soul Evolution?

[Thor 2]

Why can't souls be measured and detected?
We can detect and measure very subtle and fleeting phenomena thousands of light years away but never a soul in the lab.
We must be living in a sea of souls busy entering new bodies and leaving old bodies but the only way they can be detected is by psychics, mediums and hypnotists.
Not very persuasive

Well:

In 1907 a Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Massachusetts announced that the mass of the human soul was on average 21 grams. He made this claim after conducting several experiments where the weight of several terminally ill people was measured by placing the deathbed on an industrial scale. The weight of the subjects before, during, and after death, was recorded. The ambiguity of his results when examined closely, and the methodology used, was criticised by scientists. There were few that took the good doctor's findings seriously.

There you go.

 

[MikeG]

Well:

In 1907 a Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Massachusetts announced that the mass of the human soul was on average 21 grams. He made this claim after conducting several experiments where the weight of several terminally ill people was measured by placing the deathbed on an industrial scale. The weight of the subjects before, during, and after death, was recorded. The ambiguity of his results when examined closely, and the methodology used, was criticised by scientists. There were few that took the good doctor's findings seriously.

There you go.

Even believers in souls would have to treat that famous and ridiculous experiment with caution. If something has mass, it must have volume: ie be an actual physical thing. If it is an actual physical thing, it must have a location. So, I want a soul-ectomy. Where does the surgeon make the incision?

 

[ComfySlippers]

...
Why do you religious types twist yourself up in knots with such nonsense?
...

This is the million dollar question.

There are people on this forum, and in real life, who ask "If there is no such thing as God, why do you care so much about him?"

The very simple fact is that belief in gods, souls, spirits, reincarnation and all such religious nonsense is so ridiculous, that to sane, rational people it's a head-scratcher as to why believers don't see it.

They often do see it though. Hence the mental gymnastics in order to explain the crap and to justify to themselves why they believe in said crap.

This thread isn't about wether there is such a thing as a soul. It's about one person's need to convince himself, no matter how lame the excuses are, to believe in claptrap.

In his other thread he says he saw an ex-medical professional who said she'd struggled because medicine contradicted her belief in miracles!
And he chose to take her seriously!

There are a few religiousy folk here twisting words and meanings, quoting bible bollocks, tirelessly digging their holes deeper and deeper, unable to keep up with their own lies and nonsense. It's embarrassing to see fellow human beings act like this, that's why we bother.

We get it. You're scared of dying. That's no reason to believe in nonsensical, madey-uppy bollocks though. You're still going to die. You're not going to a heaven. You're not coming back. Be happy that your microscopic bits and pieces will help grow some rhubarb or something.

 

[Bikewer]

Reincarnation is just another dodge invented by humans to cheat death. The Eleysian Fields, The Happy Hunting Ground, Heaven, reincarnation.... All the same.
Our ancestors were bright enough to realize that they would die someday, and they were not happy about it.
They saw the activities of "spirits" everywhere (primitive animism)...So, by jingo, they must have one too!

Viola!...We live on. Virtually all of those primitives that have been studied not only pursue some form of Animism but ancestor worship as well. They are out there, and we'll join them someday.

We should have grown up by now, but we keep latching on to little bits of paradolia and coincidence and such and seeing dear, departed great-uncle Harry in little baby Fred's blue eyes.

Randi detailed a famous reincarnation case in the UK in one of his books some years back. A young lady had vivid memories of her life in the time of Hadrian and the wall.
Remarkably detailed; sometimes she dreamed the minutia of life as a young Roman girl at the time.

So detailed, in fact, that someone thought they recognized bits. Sure enough, the local library had a copy of a history of the Roman occupation of the British Isles, and it had indeed been checked out to the young woman when she was a child.
Apparently quite sincere, she had completely forgotten that she read the thing.

Of such material is reincarnation made of. I remember a Skeptical Inquirer article...Likewise years ago, during the "hypnotic regression" fad. The researchers noted that under prompting to recall previous lives, those test subjects capable of deep hypnosis would spin out remarkable stories, quite detailed.
However, the regression "therapists" would stop there. Proof positive!

The Skeptical Inquirer researchers simply went further. After obtaining a story about life in perhaps, ancient Rome, they'd simply ask..."Where did you learn of this?"
"I read it in a book." "I saw a documentary in school."....Etc, etc. The human brain is capable of amazing and instant confabulation. Anyone who dreams should be aware of this. Complex, fascinating scenarios can be spun out with ease.
Anthropologists are taught to be wary of "folk legends", which are often made up on the spot by native "subjects" to please the anthropologist.

I'd like someone to present a model of how a "soul" would function. How it would retain memory, accomplish processing, have sensory input... All without the support system of the body. We know that about 25% of all the body's resources go to maintaining consciousness and brain function. We might say that the body exists to keep the mind going....
How is all that going to function with no body? Where does the energy come from? Where does it go?

"It's spiritual"...."It's immaterial"....Just handwaves. Nonsense. As noted earlier in the thread... We are capable of detecting and measuring the subtlest of energies and processes. You'd think a "soul" would be fairly robust.

 

[Pixel42]

Someone recently brought up on another thread a 2003 documentary called The Boy Who Lived Before, about a Scottish child who appears to have memories of a former life on Barra. I googled Barra documentary and found this 1996 documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0996476/

The Isle of Barra, situated at Southwestern tip of Hebrides, is an isolated place with a mysterious magnetism. The film depicts everyday life on this remote island where traditional tasks such as fishing and crafting are carried out. We are captured by the fairy tales and the Celtic folklore of Barra, and the dreamlike beauty of the landscape. The recurrence of symbols, colors and signs have given a poetic quality to this impressionistic documentary film.

Just the sort of documentary which would be shown on Scottish daytime TV.

 

[SusanB-M1]

If your soul stills feel that way in the afterlife, I suppose you might get your wish. You might feel quite differently. Or God might feel that you are just the "soul" he needs to be reborn to fulfill a purpose.

Why worry about it now? Just as I accept suffering is part of life, I accept that death is what it is. It may also be there is nothing at all, in which case you get your wish, and you and I just become a memory in the minds of the living for a short while.

Thank you for reply. It is interesting to note that you choose the word 'worry'. As far as I'm concerned, there is a total lack of worry about anything to do with death. I hope I can die neatly and efficiently so that there is the least amount of action that others have to take!

 

[ComfySlippers]

...
It is interesting to note that you choose the word 'worry'. As far as I'm concerned, there is a total lack of worry about anything to do with death. I hope I can die neatly and efficiently so that there is the least amount of action that others have to take!

This.

Worrying about death is so damned silly.
Dying... Ok, that can be a nuisance, but death itself?

There's really no reason to believe in makes-uppys just so you can pretend you're going to live forever.

As SusanB-M1 rightly suggests, I'd be more worried for the people who might have to mop my goo off the carpet. That stuff is a bugger to clean up and pongs.

Aren't religious people supposed to care about others?
Think of the ones you'll be leaving behind instead. Make sure you have a proper Will and that they know where it lives.
Make sure they know where you've hidden your gold and your collection of valuable 1920s teaspoons. Remember to turn the oven off.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Some people are absolutely positive their experience was real. Scientists have no explanation other than some strange mental chemistry which is still not defined.

And some people are so convinced God told them to kill their children that they actually kill their children. We understand those people to have a severe mental health issue, and we remove them from society (and, perhaps, attempt to treat their illness).

People who are "absolutely positive their [supernatural] experience was real" have similar mental health issues, in my opinion. We don't lock them away simply because their particular delusion hasn't proven dangerous to themselves or those around them.

Personal conviction is not a measure of actual truth.

 

[PartSkeptic]

So, brain death? Except that fingernails and hair cells remain alive after the brain dies. So, at that stage, is the soul just in ones fingernails and hair?

Good question. The physical body is a machine that follows the laws of physics for most of the time. The soul goes along for the ride, and only intervenes when needed. Psychic abilities, or pops a thought into our heads, and so on. Like a plane on autopilot. The pilots provide input during take-off, and emergencies.

I would say that brain death is probably a point of departure for the soul. As for location, I would guess that the soul expands and contracts with the spirit.

These questions have puzzled mankind for millennia. I am just dong a best fit of what I have experienced.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Why can't souls be measured and detected?
We can detect and measure very subtle and fleeting phenomena thousands of light years away but never a soul in the lab.
We must be living in a sea of souls busy entering new bodies and leaving old bodies but the only way they can be detected is by psychics, mediums and hypnotists.
Not very persuasive

The instrument to measure and detect souls has not been invented yet. The instruments to read our thoughts has not been invented yet either. We cannot measure or detect other dimensions yet either, yet they are postulated to be a possibility.

BTW. Your statement: "We can detect and measure very subtle and fleeting phenomena thousands of light years away". As subtle as a supernova? Or the butterfly on some planet there?

 

[PartSkeptic]

Thank you for reply. It is interesting to note that you choose the word 'worry'. As far as I'm concerned, there is a total lack of worry about anything to do with death. I hope I can die neatly and efficiently so that there is the least amount of action that others have to take!

Great. Good for you. I have similar hopes, and lack of worry. I am trying to tidy up the loose ends in my life. Getting rid of junk. Organizing my paperwork. Making a "On My Death File". I have been the executor of a couple of wills so I know the burden and work entailed.

One could say "Not my problem after I die." But consideration for others is a hard habit to break.

And I accept that I may be wrong, and that I might just be a "moist robot" that gets consigned to the scrapheap. I need a theory to explain some of my experiences.

One might be that I (like others) have experiences that seem strange but are (very) unusual brain blips. However, my usual state is being highly capable in the memory and analytical department, with a stable brain close to 100% of the time, so it is not easy for me to fully accept that explanation either.

 

[Thor 2]

Good question. The physical body is a machine that follows the laws of physics for most of the time. The soul goes along for the ride, and only intervenes when needed. Psychic abilities, or pops a thought into our heads, and so on. Like a plane on autopilot. The pilots provide input during take-off, and emergencies.

I would say that brain death is probably a point of departure for the soul. As for location, I would guess that the soul expands and contracts with the spirit.

These questions have puzzled mankind for millennia. I am just dong a best fit of what I have experienced.

Boy are there some holes in these propositions.

What about partial brain death like when a person is suffering from advanced dementia, or has an accident causing sever brain damage. Physical damage to the brain can cause enormous change in personality also I have read.

These questions have only puzzled those members of mankind that believe in souls.

 

[PartSkeptic]

And some people are so convinced God told them to kill their children that they actually kill their children. We understand those people to have a severe mental health issue, and we remove them from society (and, perhaps, attempt to treat their illness).

People who are "absolutely positive their [supernatural] experience was real" have similar mental health issues, in my opinion. We don't lock them away simply because their particular delusion hasn't proven dangerous to themselves or those around them.

Personal conviction is not a measure of actual truth.

Your last statement applies equally to you.

Being so positive that one cannot have a supernatural experience because the supernatural does not exist is circular reasoning.

There are people with mental illness. There are people who have hallucinations and delusions. There are people whose perceptions can be very wrong (eg witnesses to a crime). I think I would pass any test for mental illness better than most.

To say that a religious person has a form of mental illness because they have a belief in supernatural phenomena that appear to exist mostly (but not necessarily always) in the brain is again circular reasoning. It assumes again that the phenomena of "seeing a ghost", or "seeing the future" cannot happen because such things are NOT possible.

 

[bruto]

You still have not addressed the question of why souls would occupy any place, if they are not material.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Boy are there some holes in these propositions.

What about partial brain death like when a person is suffering from advanced dementia, or has an accident causing sever brain damage. Physical damage to the brain can cause enormous change in personality also I have read.

These questions have only puzzled those members of mankind that believe in souls.

No contradiction. The soul has no option but to endure the suffering and personality changes until it departs. Another lesson to be learned. The soul is not physical. It may be able to effect a brief change like terminal lucidity, otherwise it does not perform what would be considered "miracles" by regrowing and reforming the brain.

If the soul is like a driver in a self-driving car, when the car goes haywire due to circuit malfunction, the driver does not go crazy. He can stop the car and get out, or just go along for the ride until it crashes and stops. If the car degrades due to wear and tear the driver does not degrade with it.

I am so aware of the degradation in my brain. My spelling is getting very bad and so is my short-term memory. My body is aging. But my soul might still be intact.

There are people that seem to recover somewhat from a coma or brain damage. Perhaps the soul can have some slight effect on the healing process.

 

[PartSkeptic]

You still have not addressed the question of why souls would occupy any place, if they are not material.

Okay. We think of entities as "occupying" a "space". If a soul is not physical, and can "go" to another "place", then it is hard to imagine what that "place" is.

My experience of being with my late wife is hard to describe. Sensations mostly. No sense of landscapes or boundaries. No sense of the universe as we know it. We seemed to be like two intertwined plumes of brightly colored smoke, but even that is an after-impression.

What surprised me most was the incredible sensation of peace and beauty. One tries to imagine it, but it is nothing compared to experiencing it.

One could argue that human brains are wired for mystical experiences - that the brain experiences such "experiences" but they are divorced from "reality". Could be. But why are our brains wired in this way? You can guess, and so can I.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Someone recently brought up on another thread a 2003 documentary called The Boy Who Lived Before, about a Scottish child who appears to have memories of a former life on Barra. I googled Barra documentary and found this 1996 documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0996476/



Just the sort of documentary which would be shown on Scottish daytime TV.

I think that many (all?) past life regressions are impression and suggestion. I would not argue with you on this one.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Okay. We think of entities as "occupying" a "space". If a soul is not physical, and can "go" to another "place", then it is hard to imagine what that "place" is.

My experience of being with my late wife is hard to describe. Sensations mostly. No sense of landscapes or boundaries. No sense of the universe as we know it. We seemed to be like two intertwined plumes of brightly colored smoke, but even that is an after-impression.

Was your "soul" inside or outside your body when you has this experience?
I'm trying to get a handle on the relationships here. The soul is you, apart from all the brain-related stuff like skills, memory and at least part of your personality. It is in your body, most of the time at least, and leaves when the brain dies, to become a plume of brightly-coloured smoke. The body can live on without the soul, and the soul without the body, but we need both for some reason. The soul cannot influence the body in any significant way, and neither can the body affect the soul.
Does this about sum it up?
I sincerely hope not, because, when put like that, it sounds rather silly.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So, what does a soul actually do then?
Is it just some kind of parasitic entity?

 

[Myriad]

Here's the question I always consider regarding reincarnation: As far as I, the entity composing this post, am concerned, what is the difference between:

(1) dying, and sometime later having my soul reincarnated as another person, with none of my present memories; and
(2) just dying, that's it, and sometime later some other different person being born?

What makes the "reincarnated me" in the first case any different from the "other random person" in the second case? Neither my present life experience nor the other person's future life experience is affected in any way, one way or the other.

(One can introduce experiential differences by embellishing the concept of reincarnation with some form or another of cosmic credit scorekeeping, e.g. karma or "soul evolution." That requires a system to turn events into records, some stable form that preserves the records, and some kind of individual identifier attached to the soul itself that associates it with an individual record, none of which is necessary for the basic concept of reincarnation itself. In that case it's the mechanisms of that record-keeping system, and the evidence for it, that should be evaluated, rather than yes or no on reincarnation per se.)

Leaving the fanciful invented celestial bureaucracy out of the picture, the experiential equivalence between reincarnation and no reincarnation works both ways. That is, to the extent that the prospect of reincarnation is comforting, the prospect of individual annihilation alongside the continuation by others of life in general should be equally comforting. And to the extent that the prospect of individual extinction is frightening, the prospect of reincarnation should be equally frightening.