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Reincarnation Is A FACT!!!!!!!!

prewitt81 said:
How did scientific studies of reincarnation come about? Did the scientists see an abundance of phenomena which, upon investigation left them with no other reasonable conclusion that reincarnation was true? Or did they take a centuries-old belief and attempt to find evidence for it?

While the answer to this question does not settle the matter, I think it is important to know.

Children have very active imaginations. I wonder if these same children were spoken to by other scientists, or if follow-up interviews were conducted when they were adults. Among other things, coaching of children, dishonesty on the part of the children or scientists involved, or even general credophilia need to be ruled out.
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I think these objections go without saying.
 
Space_Ed said:
Actually I don't think I can do that without it being blocked by the censors because of the copywrite issues.

The children often give names of the people that they say they were and then the investigators find their records. If the birthmarks match that is one thing, but when the child is able to name complete strangers under controlled conditions that makes the possibility of coincidence or subconscious suggestion less and less likely.
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Man... I am reading more about this, and all of my BS detectors are flashing. I don't mean to be rude, so do not take my comments as such.

In one case with a village boy (5 years old), one of the *verified facts* that Stevenson uses in this case is this:

-The 5 year old boy said that in his past life " I lived in a home with a full well, and an empty well".

-Stevenson *verifies* this when he goes to the house of the dead man that is supposedly the past life of the boy, and finds two vats used for storing grape juice. In the rainy season the deeper vat would gather water, and the shallow would not due to evaporation.

This is pure rubbish. Again I do not mean to be rude, but this is not science.
 
plumjam said:
Absolutely.
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This is a good word. Not the right word, since there's a reason why historical claims can reasonably be accepted on hearsay evidence while paranormal claims cannot, but still, a good word.
 
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Gate2501 said:
Man... I am reading more about this, and all of my BS detectors are flashing. I don't mean to be rude, so do not take my comments as such.

In one case with a village boy (5 years old), one of the *verified facts* that Stevenson uses in this case is this:

-The 5 year old boy said that in his past life " I lived in a home with a full well, and an empty well".

-Stevenson *verifies* this when he goes to the house of the dead man that is supposedly the past life of the boy, and finds two vats used for storing grape juice. In the rainy season the deeper vat would gather water, and the shallow would not due to evaporation.

This is pure rubbish. Again I do not mean to be rude, but this is not science.
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Yeah that is dodgy. Not all of the things they say I agree with. It is the amount of evidence that is one of the main factors in leading me to think that they might be right.
 
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Mister Agenda said:
Historical claims in the absence of physical evidence are accepted provisionally when the claims are relatively ordinary. Historical claims that include supernatural elements are considered by most historians to be false to the degree the supernatural elements are necessary. In other words, reincarnation is an extraordinary claim and isn't properly accepted based on evidence adequate to reasonably establish that, say, Jesse Bullard was born in Salem IL in 1839 and became the town's biggest millner.
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haha lol yeah but can you trust Julius Caeser's account of the civil war completely? Ofcourse not lol.
 
Space_Ed said:
I think these objections go without saying.
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Really? In the OP your evaluation of the evidence is that it is "very strong". Until these objections are addressed, such an evaluation is improper.
 
Gate2501 said:
Man... I am reading more about this, and all of my BS detectors are flashing. I don't mean to be rude, so do not take my comments as such.

In one case with a village boy (5 years old), one of the *verified facts* that Stevenson uses in this case is this:

-The 5 year old boy said that in his past life " I lived in a home with a full well, and an empty well".

-Stevenson *verifies* this when he goes to the house of the dead man that is supposedly the past life of the boy, and finds two vats used for storing grape juice. In the rainy season the deeper vat would gather water, and the shallow would not due to evaporation.

This is pure rubbish. Again I do not mean to be rude, but this is not science.
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But then again though the boy wasn't wrong. He is a little boy remember.
 
Space_Ed said:
But then again though the boy wasn't wrong. He is a little boy remember.
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Those are descriptions of two completely different things. This seems to be an example of the credophilia I mentioned previously.
 
Space_Ed said:
'anecdotal [ánnik dṓt'l]
adjective
1. based on anecdotes or hearsay: consisting of or based on second-hand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigation
anecdotal evidence'

The methodology of their investigations is scientific in nature.
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Just because Reincarnation is one of the most pervasive delusions of humanity, doesn't mean that it is true, just look at the hysteria surrounding the theory of Anthropogenic-Global-Warming!;)

As per the definition offered, all research in this area is anecdotal because the investigator must rely on hearsay of the individuals reporting the claim. There really is no way to scientifically test the claim of reincarnation.

A researcher might try to approach the subject with a scientific bent to the methodology, but at the outset the data is flawed/tainted, so the results are already suspect...

The problem with the whole methodology is that by the time an "scientific" investigator comes on scene, the "scene's" memory has been tainted by the assumptions of those pushing the child forward as an exemplar...

Further, human memory is so notoriously unreliable in this lifetime, never mind a prior life...

Cheers.
 
Right im off to do some revision. I won't be back for a while. My recommendation is: if you are up for really going through their claims then buy that Life Before Life book. Lots of the objections you guys are coming out with are addressed in there. I really cannot be bothered to counter all your arguments by quoting from the book.
 
Mister Agenda said:
This is a good word. Not the right word, since there's a reason why historical claims can reasonably be accepted on hearsay evidence while paranormal claims cannot, but still, a good word.
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Thanks. I looked it up in the dictionary and everything.
 
Others have dissected Ian Stevenson's "proof" before. I have done it for a few cases put forth as best evidence by Montague Keen. They do not stand up. I did this in another forum. If I can find my postings there, I'll copy the relevant bits to here.

Meantime, Space Ed, so that we don't make this a wild chasing of gooses round random mulberry bushes, perhaps you could pick the one case (or at most two cases) from Ian's Twenty Cases that you thing is strongest.

It serves everyone very little to come in and say "Debunk everything!"
 
There is a very good write-up of Ian Stevenson and studies by similar researchers in Mary Roach's book Spook. Her summary of his work is as follows:

Spook said:
Unconstrained by biology, Stevenson is free to extend his theory wherever it strikes him. Facets of a past life are suggested as explanations for complexion irregularities, stockiness, third nipples, albinism, posture, gait, fear of women, fondness for toy airplanes, cleft lip, pimples, speech impediments, widely separated upper medial incisors, and a "fondness for eels, cheroots and alcohol." Viewed through such a broad eyepiece, reincarnation is an easy sell. Take a child and all her hundreds of unique features: How hard would it be to find one or two that seem linked to a feature of someone you know has died?
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http://www.amazon.com/Spook-Science...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207166817&sr=8-1

This is a great book, and it also offers a plausible explanation for all the reincarnation experiences studied by the likes of Stevenson. In India, when a child is found to be the reincarnation of someone, they are often the recipient of gifts and attention from the family of the person who died. The parents of that child are often the direct beneficiary of these gifts. If you are a poor couple living in India, why not convince the world that your child is the reincarnation of someone richer in order to receive the benefits of such an arrangement?
 
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Arkayik said:
Just because Reincarnation is one of the most pervasive delusions of humanity, doesn't mean that it is true, just look at the hysteria surrounding the theory of Anthropogenic-Global-Warming!;)

As per the definition offered, all research in this area is anecdotal because the investigator must rely on hearsay of the individuals reporting the claim. There really is no way to scientifically test the claim of reincarnation.

A researcher might try to approach the subject with a scientific bent to the methodology, but at the outset the data is flawed/tainted, so the results are already suspect...

The problem with the whole methodology is that by the time an "scientific" investigator comes on scene, the "scene's" memory has been tainted by the assumptions of those pushing the child forward as an exemplar...

Further, human memory is so notoriously unreliable in this lifetime, never mind a prior life...

Cheers.
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Again I am aware of these problems and so are they.
 
cloudshipsrule said:
Reincarnation is fact!

[qimg]http://image.motortrend.com/f/editorial/lexus-is-f-plus-jim-chris-farley/7183961+w600+cr1+re0+ar1/chris-farley.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.funnyleague.com/data/chris-farley-reincarnated.jpg[/qimg]
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LMAO
 
Space_Ed said:
haha lol yeah but can you trust Julius Caeser's account of the civil war completely? Ofcourse not lol.
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You are, of course, correct. Much of what we take for history is pretty dodgy. There's lots of degrees of certainty, motivation to embellish is certainly something to take into account when examining claims. Not a few sources have been altered, as well. I suppose the most trustworthy historical fact would be a very boring one corroborated by multiple sources.
 
Space_Ed said:
I would like to point out an objection I have to dismissing all anecdotal accounts of events based on first hand testimony:

Much of recorded history is based on first and second hand accounts which have been recorded in journals, texts, art etc. Undoubtedly much of it is not reliable, hence history is an art and not a science. However, if all first and second hand accounts are to be dismissed for being 'anecdotal' then there goes all recorded history out of the window. Many of the events of history that are not backed up by physical evidence did not happen. What a shame that would be.
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Indeed it would be a shame to dismiss history because it is second-hand and anecdotal. However, history does not make reliable predictions of the future. Science does because of its demand for repeatable, unbiased measurements.
 
I really wish that Chris Farely were back :( .

Unfortunately my brother thought he was a pterodactyl when we were little, does that mean he was re-incarnated? Magic 8 ball says 'Yes'
 
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