Reincarnation: A response to Anders W. Bonde

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ian said:
Now when the mind operates in detachment from the brain, when it is temporarily or permanently disembodied, then its processing is released from the constraining influence of the arrays of primitive processing units (essentially the brain). It will then have access to all other perceptions apart from our everyday perceptions. Those other perceptions will be driven by some other "engine", and the person may seem to be passing through other worlds. This would be broadly consistent with the anecdotal experiences of some out-of-body experiences, especially near-death experiences - and indeed with reportedly channelled descriptions from the dead, as well as with traditional accounts such as those found in the "Tibetan Book of the Dead.

But if I've understood anything you've said these past few years, my brain, like everything else other than my mind, is simply an illusion played upon my senses by the universal Mind. It is no more a fundamental part of me than that tree over there. Why would the universal Mind go to all the bother to give me the illusion of a brain that has the power to limit my mind's processing?

I will be pleasantly surprised if you answer this question.

~~ Paul

 

[Interesting Ian]

But if I've understood anything you've said these past few years, my brain, like everything else other than my mind, is simply an illusion played upon my senses by the universal Mind.

No the brain is no more illusionary than any other object.

It is no more a fundamental part of me than that tree over there. Why would the universal Mind go to all the bother to give me the illusion of a brain that has the power to limit my mind's processing?

The world operates according to physical laws. My mental state must be affected with any interaction with the environment, otherwise I could never know about the environment! It's just that the brain effects us more.

We are in a reduced mental state whilst living in this empirical reality. I don't know why we are but I suppose it will have something to do with learning lessons whilst in this life.

I will be pleasantly surprised if you answer this question.

~~ Paul

I can feel the glow from here.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ian said:
No the brain is no more illusionary than any other object.

You're avoiding my point: Is my brain different from any other non-mind object?

The world operates according to physical laws.

Not yours. It operates according to the laws of the universal Mind, apparently.

My mental state must be affected with any interaction with the environment, otherwise I could never know about the environment! It's just that the brain effects us more.

Why does the Mind bother with the environment?

We are in a reduced mental state whilst living in this empirical reality. I don't know why we are but I suppose it will have something to do with learning lessons whilst in this life.

Aha! Okay, as long as we don't know what is the point of this almost-dualistic schism between the mind and everything else, I'm happy. Although why this state of affairs makes you so happy not to be a materialist I cannot fathom.

I can feel the glow from here.

It's the glow of confusion, as usual.

~~ Paul

 

[Open Mind]

I see no more reason to presume physical evolution would improve psi ability, than to presume physical evolution would close down psi. In fact the latter would explain some mysteries

For example, the result (purpose?) of earthy life could be a birth of individual consciousness/awareness from within a greater collective consciousness .... if we all had perfect PSI telepathy with no established sense of individuality, how individual would be our minds? Not at all, in my opinion. So perhaps once we have established an identity that evolves through a sense of space and time that occurs as a result of being trapped in the limitations of the body/brain, a sense/experience of individuality is born. Space, time could mean individuality, a sense of separate things of objects and things. Upon brain death would individual consciousness be lost? Not necessarily, once a awareness of space, time, individuality has started it could just begin to evolve ...... evolution could mean increased individuality as there is a tendency for more evolved creatures to behave in a individual rather than collective species manner.

What about reincarnation? Perhaps consciousness keeps splitting just like we have offspring ..... the new individual has some awareness of it's source but this diminishes as it develops it's own individuality and starts to evolve. Our individual consciousness could have come from what is now a group consciousness, that came from a collective human consciousness, that eventually links back to one single consciousness - God

PSI, could be a threat to both developing individual consciousness and also a disruption of the brains focus on physical reality for earthly survival. Some skeptics seem to be defining PSI as something that would necessarily be controllable by the human brain, a sort of private telepathic telephone channel that can be dominated by an individual or species so therefore would offer some advantage through evolution ……but what if when trapped in a physical body PSI is fairly useless?

Instead of viewing psi as a super human power that parapsychologist have been looking for (and finding only weak effects) , perhaps we should consider PSI more along the lines of what their much earlier psychical researchers suspected. That PSI is controlled by external consciousness, not human consciousness of those on earth.

PSI might not just be uncontrollable to humans, it might be risky too. Look at the evolution of the internet, it is not just positive, the human monkeys have decided to invent viruses, spam, immoral / criminal activities, deception (pretending to be another identity on –line) … ..of course th internet is useful and it is controllable ... but we cannot assume that anyone can dominate psi.

Religions have long believed PSI communication could have its spammers, undesired, incoherent information leading to some cases of schizophrenia? Or what about a PSI virus, thoughts that live and seek to inhabit the human mind? Or possession (parasitic entities?) Or what about deception, a spirit person deliberately giving wrong information to deceive for mischievous purpose? What about of non humans surviving too, other rival species using psi to deceive?

Well actually I doubt psi is anywhere near that dangerous, but then again I would question the unknown stranger entering my house .. so perhaps those investigating psychic phenomena should question the unknown stranger entering their minds

OK, I am heading into the realms of fantasy but perhaps that is what life after death is ... fantasy ........we all have this idea that logic is wonderful because it is essential to our reality and physical survival ..and because PSI doesn't seem logical we reject it ..... frankly logic and calculation are often mundane ....... we seek the things that give us greatest pleasure like are happiness, love, art, music, cinema, etc. ...... even our science goal is often to try an create new fantasies, more emotional happiness ....... whose heaven would completely resemble earth?

 

[CFLarsen]

I see no more reason to presume physical evolution would improve psi ability, than to presume physical evolution would close down psi. In fact the latter would explain some mysteries

For example, the result (purpose?) of earthy life could be a birth of individual consciousness/awareness from within a greater collective consciousness .... if we all had perfect PSI telepathy with no established sense of individuality, how individual would be our minds? Not at all, in my opinion. So perhaps once we have established an identity that evolves through a sense of space and time that occurs as a result of being trapped in the limitations of the body/brain, a sense/experience of individuality is born. Space, time could mean individuality, a sense of separate things of objects and things. Upon brain death would individual consciousness be lost? Not necessarily, once a awareness of space, time, individuality has started it could just begin to evolve ...... evolution could mean increased individuality as there is a tendency for more evolved creatures to behave in a individual rather than collective species manner.

What about reincarnation? Perhaps consciousness keeps splitting just like we have offspring ..... the new individual has some awareness of it's source but this diminishes as it develops it's own individuality and starts to evolve. Our individual consciousness could have come from what is now a group consciousness, that came from a collective human consciousness, that eventually links back to one single consciousness - God

PSI, could be a threat to both developing individual consciousness and also a disruption of the brains focus on physical reality for earthly survival. Some skeptics seem to be defining PSI as something that would necessarily be controllable by the human brain, a sort of private telepathic telephone channel that can be dominated by an individual or species so therefore would offer some advantage through evolution ……but what if when trapped in a physical body PSI is fairly useless?

Instead of viewing psi as a super human power that parapsychologist have been looking for (and finding only weak effects) , perhaps we should consider PSI more along the lines of what their much earlier psychical researchers suspected. That PSI is controlled by external consciousness, not human consciousness of those on earth.

PSI might not just be uncontrollable to humans, it might be risky too. Look at the evolution of the internet, it is not just positive, the human monkeys have decided to invent viruses, spam, immoral / criminal activities, deception (pretending to be another identity on –line) … ..of course th internet is useful and it is controllable ... but we cannot assume that anyone can dominate psi.

Religions have long believed PSI communication could have its spammers, undesired, incoherent information leading to some cases of schizophrenia? Or what about a PSI virus, thoughts that live and seek to inhabit the human mind? Or possession (parasitic entities?) Or what about deception, a spirit person deliberately giving wrong information to deceive for mischievous purpose? What about of non humans surviving too, other rival species using psi to deceive?

Well actually I doubt psi is anywhere near that dangerous, but then again I would question the unknown stranger entering my house .. so perhaps those investigating psychic phenomena should question the unknown stranger entering their minds

OK, I am heading into the realms of fantasy but perhaps that is what life after death is ... fantasy ........we all have this idea that logic is wonderful because it is essential to our reality and physical survival ..and because PSI doesn't seem logical we reject it ..... frankly logic and calculation are often mundane ....... we seek the things that give us greatest pleasure like are happiness, love, art, music, cinema, etc. ...... even our science goal is often to try an create new fantasies, more emotional happiness ....... whose heaven would completely resemble earth?

What a bunch of hooey.

 

[Open Mind]

What a bunch of hooey.

Oh goody That should mean you will want to publish it on Skeptic Report.

 

[davidsmith73]

I see no more reason to presume physical evolution would improve psi ability, than to presume physical evolution would close down psi. In fact the latter would explain some mysteries

For example, the result (purpose?) of earthy life could be a birth of individual consciousness/awareness from within a greater collective consciousness .... if we all had perfect PSI telepathy with no established sense of individuality, how individual would be our minds? Not at all, in my opinion.

That’s an intriguing idea. I reckon that such an idea must be based on some kind of mental monist view of reality though. If you can figure out how two separate streams of consciousness can emerge from a single one then perhaps you have the basis for explaining why we seem to have private experiences. You could even perhaps explain how physical reality is constucted by this process. An immense task indeed.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Oh goody That should mean you will want to publish it on Skeptic Report.

I certainly think he should. It's vastly more interesting and insightful than any of the other cr@p he puts in there (the little I've read anyway).

So how about it Claus??

 

[Garrette]

All quotations originally posted by Open Mind:

I see no more reason to presume physical evolution would improve psi ability, than to presume physical evolution would close down psi. In fact the latter would explain some mysteries.

For psi to be “closed down” it would have to be there to begin with.

So unless you’re positing that psi was present with the first organism then it had to evolve which means it had an evolutionary advantage.

For example, the result (purpose?) of earthy life could be a birth of individual consciousness/awareness from within a greater collective consciousness ....

1. This assumes there is a purpose. There is no indication that there is one. Evolution certainly does not work toward a purpose at all, regardless if an external one exists.

2. If there is a purpose about which we are to speculate, then why stop at this one.

3. Regarding your postulated purpose, what possible good is it? How would a “greater collective consciousness” be improved through acquisition of an individual consciousness?

4. You are, again, assuming that the greater collective consciousness existed prior to the first organism or sprang into being with the first organism.

if we all had perfect PSI telepathy with no established sense of individuality, how individual would be our minds? Not at all, in my opinion. So perhaps once we have established an identity that evolves through a sense of space and time that occurs as a result of being trapped in the limitations of the body/brain, a sense/experience of individuality is born.

To what purpose?

My experience is that believers (including you and Ian) believe it a positive thing to tap back into the greater collective consciousness and that failure to do so is limiting (you even call the body/brain a “limitation” in this post).

So you’re saying something that was better voluntarily morphed at least partially into something more limited so that the something more limited can try to get back as part of the something better.

Space, time could mean individuality, a sense of separate things of objects and things.

And it could mean pink fluffy things.

But I’ll turn off the sarcastic mode for a moment:

You’re saying the greater collective consciousness has no sense of separate physical objects. That its very collectiveness is a limitation.

If that is the case, then what credence should we give to any claim that invokes it?

Nina Kulagina, for instance: if real, her powers must come from the greater collective consciousness, but you’ve just indicated that the GCC has no sense of physical things, so it can’t be the source of her power. Since it’s not the source of her power, she can have no such power because she must rely on the purely physical.

Upon brain death would individual consciousness be lost? Not necessarily, once a awareness of space, time, individuality has started it could just begin to evolve ...... evolution could mean increased individuality as there is a tendency for more evolved creatures to behave in a individual rather than collective species manner.

Then I don’t need the GCC. I can act extremely individually now.

What about reincarnation? Perhaps consciousness keeps splitting just like we have offspring ..... the new individual has some awareness of it's source but this diminishes as it develops it's own individuality and starts to evolve.

This argues against the oft-heard claim that the ancients were better.

Individuality is the goal and is better, so stop trying to tap into that old stuff.

Our individual consciousness could have come from what is now a group consciousness, that came from a collective human consciousness, that eventually links back to one single consciousness - God

This makes no sense whatsoever.

PSI, could be a threat to both developing individual consciousness and also a disruption of the brains focus on physical reality for earthly survival. Some skeptics seem to be defining PSI as something that would necessarily be controllable by the human brain, a sort of private telepathic telephone channel that can be dominated by an individual or species so therefore would offer some advantage through evolution ……but what if when trapped in a physical body PSI is fairly useless?

I think it’s quite obvious that—if it exists—it’s fairly useless. No one’s used it for anything of use.

Let me make sure I understand, though.

You’re suggesting PSI is a sort of vestigial tail that gets in the way when we metaphorically walk?

If you believe this to be the case, I suggest your efforts to convince others PSI exists are detrimental to the stated purpose. You should convince everyone it doesn’t exist and that any attempts to prove it or develop it are fruitless. Otherwise we’ll never continue our evolution toward a greater individual consciousness.

Instead of viewing psi as a super human power that parapsychologist have been looking for (and finding only weak effects) , perhaps we should consider PSI more along the lines of what their much earlier psychical researchers suspected. That PSI is controlled by external consciousness, not human consciousness of those on earth.

But you’ve already shown that the GCC has no sense of physical objects so how could it possibly manipulate the GIC to do so?

PSI might not just be uncontrollable to humans, it might be risky too. Look at the evolution of the internet, it is not just positive, the human monkeys have decided to invent viruses, spam, immoral / criminal activities, deception (pretending to be another identity on –line) … ..of course th internet is useful and it is controllable ... but we cannot assume that anyone can dominate psi.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that PSI is either all good or all bad.

Plus, you’re using “evolution” incorrectly when applying it to the internet.

Religions have long believed PSI communication could have its spammers, undesired, incoherent information leading to some cases of schizophrenia?

What religions?

Or what about a PSI virus, thoughts that live and seek to inhabit the human mind? Or possession (parasitic entities?) Or what about deception, a spirit person deliberately giving wrong information to deceive for mischievous purpose? What about of non humans surviving too, other rival species using psi to deceive?

What about them?

You are, again, suggesting the existence of something prior to the existence of the first organism. Further, you are suggesting multiple somethings. A GCC, parasitic entities, spirit people, psi virus.

What do you have besides wild conjecture to lend credence to this hypothesis?

Well actually I doubt psi is anywhere near that dangerous, but then again I would question the unknown stranger entering my house .. so perhaps those investigating psychic phenomena should question the unknown stranger entering their minds

There’s usually evidence of the stranger trying to enter the house.

OK, I am heading into the realms of fantasy

Clearly.

but perhaps that is what life after death is ... fantasy .......

Or perhaps it doesn’t exist.

.we all have this idea that logic is wonderful because it is essential to our reality and physical survival

Close enough.

..and because PSI doesn't seem logical we reject it

No.

It is rejected because the evidence is not in its favor. By a very very long shot.

..... frankly logic and calculation are often mundane

Oh, yes.

....... we seek the things that give us greatest pleasure like are happiness, love, art, music, cinema, etc.

Yes, but this is irrelevant to your point.

...... even our science goal is often to try an create new fantasies, more emotional happiness .......

Poppycock.

whose heaven would completely resemble earth?

So you’re saying: I want something more therefore PSI exists?
I don’t have my personal heaven yet, but it’s not that far off.

Give me a comfortable world in which my children are safe and guaranteed of an excellent and prosperous future and I will.

That does not require psi.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I someone could consistently read my mind, I would kill them. The rest is up to evolution.

~~ Paul

 

[Open Mind]

Garrette,

For psi to be “closed down” it would have to be there to begin with.

So unless you’re positing that psi was present with the first organism then it had to evolve which means it had an evolutionary advantage.

Yes either to some degree, if consciousness is outside the brain, PSI could be from consciousness to consciousness, not so much the brain evolving telepathy, perhaps more like leakage rather than controlled solely by physical evolution

Also an evolutionary advantage can become an evolutionary disadvantage depending on the environment. If the hypothesis the brain is closing down psi in more individualized creatures is true, I suggest this would probably predict less competitive more cooperative creatures have more psi ability ….. to test this might involve testing social insects or perhaps psi trials on tribal communities, if less competitive groups exist. This reminds me of Rupert Sheldrake who also thinks friends and close family do a bit better in telepathy trials, of course to a skeptic this increases suspicion of cheating.

I think competitiveness (which increases individuality and intelligence too) might spoil psi. For example would a rival creature want to psi another creature to know where food is? It is possibly more likely to be used to deceptively entice the rival there to make a meal of it? I’m just questioning how effective psi could evolve in our physical competitive environment.

Also if PSI can be evolved I would suggest anti-psi would evolve too. (This might also question the wisdom of Mr Randi testing people claiming psi with an adversarial tone, as his 1 million challenge website acknowledges an adversarial tone is very likely to be adopted, it is a challenge that I would sum up as ‘we don’t believe you, we will show you and others, you cannot do what you think you can do’

1. This assumes there is a purpose. There is no indication that there is one. Evolution certainly does not work toward a purpose at all, regardless if an external one exists.

But Garrette, old pal, I put ‘purpose’ in brackets with a question mark, that is only one option, the birth of individual consciousness doesn’t necessarily have to be of great planned purpose ….. just like the physical eye could be said to have a 'purpose' and it does after it exists, the process leading to the purpose was not necessarily preplanned according to materialists ……

..... Similar could apply to evolution of consciousness, a purpose is seen but the evolution of consciousness is really the evolution of consciousness evolving towards the more pleasant and learning to avoid the unpleasant. To the religious this would appear a plan of good winning over evil - they see a purpose and there is one after it exists and imagine an old guy with a white beard is controlling the universe arbitrarily.

But how do you know ‘Evolution certainly does not work toward a purpose at all’ … why does evolution exist at all? …….we need to remember ‘evolutionary advantage’ is a theory, a good one but is it partial or complete explanation of evolution? The idea of a soul evolving , long predates Darwinian physical evolution (I think co-discoverer, co publisher Alfred Wallace Russell later argued the case for soul evolution and psi)

Being a fair chap, Garrette, we can test this, I will award you $1million in 50,000 years time if consciousness is purely in the physical brain (inflation, indexed linked of course )

2. If there is a purpose about which we are to speculate, then why stop at this one.

No problem, feel free to carry on …

How would a “greater collective consciousness” be improved through acquisition of an individual consciousness?

For example the internet is the linking of individual information systems, the whole benefits.

4. You are, again, assuming that the greater collective consciousness existed prior to the first organism or sprang into being with the first organism.

Not really, I would suggest consciousness could be evolving, collectively and individually, in much the same chaotic manner as physical evolution or by trial and error, acquiring an awareness of what brings pleasant outcomes and avoids pain.

‘if we all had perfect PSI telepathy with no established sense of individuality, how individual would be our minds? Not at all, in my opinion. So perhaps once we have established an identity that evolves through a sense of space and time that occurs as a result of being trapped in the limitations of the body/brain, a sense/experience of individuality is born.
To what purpose?

If you are happy with the idea physical evolution doesn’t require preplanned purpose, why must evolution of consciousness require a preplanned purpose? I don’t know, I wish I did.

you’re saying something that was better voluntarily morphed at least partially into something more limited so that the something more limited can try to get back as part of the something better.

Not quite, the evolution of individual consciouness, within groups consciousness, within larger group consciousness .. perhaps eventually rooting to a single consciousness (God?) …. The subdivisions are evolving the groups and the whole, is God evolving? Eastern religions might say God is beyond time, therefore already perfect, but expressed in time and space imperfect and evolving.

You’re saying the greater collective consciousness has no sense of separate physical objects. That its very collectiveness is a limitation.

No, I didn’t mean that. I was trying to say to develop a new individual consciousness might occur from a separation/isolation from the source consciousness being shut off from it when in earthly incarnation. Otherwise it would remember it’s origin, previous existence.

I think individual consciousness might split. Let us imagine the death of a guy called Garrette . Garrette floats out of the body, and whooshes though a tunnel of light ….. he remains Garrette in a place that resembles his expectations, his consciousness is Garratte, he feels he is Garrette, he is indeed still Garrette …… however he begins to realize he existed before being Garrette, and has some memories of making plastic knobs for TV sets in Hong Kong ….. he then meets Miss Wong Tu Shing who also has identical memories of making the very same plastic knobs and buttons for TV sets in the same place at the same time ….. they were the same person, had the same consciousness but no longer are, Miss Wong Tu Shing did not exactly reincarnate, she continued to evolve where she was and remains Miss Wong Tu Shing ….. her consciousness split for some reason. In nature there is a splitting of cells and even humans into offsping, etc.)

Now Garrette, this might be complete nonsense but you gotta admit I have budding future in science fiction if nothing else (or perhaps an off shoot of my consciouness will have )

Our individual consciousness could have come from what is now a group consciousness, that came from a collective human consciousness, that eventually links back to one single consciousness - God

This makes no sense whatsoever.

You don’t believe you are part of Miss Wong Tu Shing! I was merely suggesting consciousness might split and evolve, it is not a loss of consciousness at the split, it is just consciousness heads of two different evolutions sharing the same memory origin .... perhaps all human consciousness is another group all linked at a source level which in turn evolved from another consciousness and so on …….

Then I don’t need the GCC. I can act extremely individually now.

Tough luck Garrette, I’ve decided in this post you have a greater collective consciousness whether you like it or not!!!!!!!!!!

you believe this to be the case, I suggest your efforts to convince others PSI exists are detrimental to the stated purpose. You should convince everyone it doesn’t exist and that any attempts to prove it or develop it are fruitless. Otherwise we’ll never continue our evolution toward a greater individual consciousness.

Hmm … I wonder if Miss Wong Tu Shing was also such cunning debater

Religions have long believed PSI communication could have its spammers, undesired, incoherent information leading to some cases of schizophrenia?

What religions?

Perhaps my wording didn’t make this clear enough. As you will know religions have regarded people hearing voices in the past as possession, performing exorcism etc. Today we call this mental illness …

Further, you are suggesting multiple somethings. A GCC, parasitic entities, spirit people, psi virus.

What do you have besides wild conjecture to lend credence to this hypothesis?

These are also old ideas Garrette, I was suggesting ideas as to why PSI ability might not evolve as expected by some skeptics, in doing so I also attempted to unify common paranormal claims .….. not because I am stating these definitely exist but to show we cannot rule these out, at least yet.

….. a few psychiatrists are re-investigating possession as cause of mental illness, such as Dr Alan Sanderson (http://www.spiritrelease.com/review_spiritrelease.htm ) claiming cases where it works when medical treatment has failed.
Now whether this is placebo or not I don't know, in my opinion, they really need to do proper clinical trials, which might cause outrage to those hold a-priori belief it is ancient superstitious nonsense .... but I think science should not feel above testing any idea, old or new ......