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Regulations, bad or good?

DC

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Mar 20, 2008
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Milton Friedman making his famous arguments against FDA and regulations in general.

But i disagree, i think we need regulations, i am happy we have institutions that do test things, for example electrical components must meet certain standards for it to be allowed to be sold.

What do you think? could we do without regulations?
 
Of course regulations are good. Libertarianism is for college undergrads who just discovered the individual idealism.
 
oh well Milton makes some excellent points i think. sure i also think most regulations are good, and that Milton is to naive in this case and overrates bad names for companies or how easy it is to rename your company etc.

I think his arguments deserve a bit more than just hand waving :D
 
Those against regulations of that kind would do good into looking into why the regulations were introduced in the first place.

Not to stifle the 'free market', but because when not regulated people selling stuff have no problems using rotten meat or defective products if it will make them money.
 
in another Video Friedman shows an example of governmental regulation where someone is testing toy guns for children on noise-levels.

which seemed very laughable is actually quite important.

Do you want your kids to find out that some toy guns are indeed to loud and harm the kids ears? i don't. better have an institution that sets limits and tests these.
 
Regulation for regulations' sake is almost always stupid. But so is the idea that regulations are necessarily a bad idea.
 
Human knowledge has advanced so far that nobody can encompass all of it, even on a superficial level. I may or may not be able to tell whether meat is rotten, just by looking carefully at the time of purchase, but it may not be possible for me to tell whether a complex product utilising modern technology is defective, or even harmful. If, for example, I employ a workman to install a gas central heating system, I don't have the expertise to determine whether that system is venting carbon monoxide into my bedroom, and the only way it may become known is if I don't wake up one morning. In a Libertarian non-system, there might not be an onus on anyone to find out why I didn't wake up, so our incompetent workman never gets detected until so many people have died that the correlation is obvious.

Regulations, however, specify that the workman I employ has to follow a set of criteria that ensure that carbon monoxide is only released into a well-ventilated area where it can't re-enter the house. If he gets it wrong, there are laws that demand that the cause of my unexplained death be determined, and this will lead to exposure of the mistake so that other people won't suffer the same fate.

As with everything else, regulation needs to be applied reasonably, and - being human and fallible - we can get it wrong in either direction. But abolishing all regulation would simply remove the uncertainty, and make sure that we necessarily get it wrong.

Dave
 
Regulation is about setting standards that must be complied with to ensure that something or someone is going to work in the way intended. As others have said, as an individual even in the most ideal of situations it's not likely that I would have sufficient knowledge and expertise to work out if (for example) the paint on a toy is contaminated with lead or non-toxic before I give it to my child. Either the standard is there and regulation is enforced when it's breached or the alternative is finding out after the fact, when they've been poisoned.

There are good reasons why things are regulated, I'm sure you can find examples of some regulations that seem silly but if you look back far enough there is generally a very good reason why it was introduced.
 
Because humans are possessed of the "Moral Sense," we need regulations.

"The Moral Sense" term was coined by Mark Twain in his "The Mysterious Stranger." Essentially the term refers to how humans justify ugly things.

Humans are naturally greedy. Witness the Seven Deadly Sins.

Thus, in financial matters like those that take place in Big Banking and Big Finance, regulations prevent exploitation of the small by the big.

CDFingers
 
mmhhhh, whats gong on? A Milton Friedman video and no Libertarians here to defend him?
 
mmhhhh, whats gong on? A Milton Friedman video and no Libertarians here to defend him?

I'll defend him.

Friedman on regulation, was always trying to make the simple point that regulation has a cost. A regulation should only be considered for implementation if the unregulated free market alternative is costlier than it would be with a regulation in place.

For instance: if your goal was simply to prevent death or injury, and that was your only goal, then you should support a regulation that states that all cars be destroyed and banned, and people are to wear full body, high impact protective suits, gas masks, and be required to stay in a 2 foot thick concrete bunker for the entirety of their lives. As long as everyone has food and water, hypothetically, this would prevent death.

So clearly there is a price for safety. (this is an extreme example for extreme's sake - it's absurd and would be economically and socially disastrous, obviously) If the regulation costs more than not regulating, then it should absolutely be abandoned.

Requiring seatbelts was always a point of good debate, in fact it's probably a good regulation/law. (costs less than NOT having that law) A regulation, however, that requires car manufacturers to equip all cars with 4 wheel drive and electronic traction control, is probably a bad idea. The cost to society would likely outweigh the benefit.

Another example: Banning texting while driving. Clearly, texting while driving is dangerous. No one would dispute this, the evidence is very clear. But if we look at how much people pay for a cell phone plan that incorporates texting as a feature, we can extrapolate how much we value an individual text message. We can then compare that to a Value of Statistical Life calculation, and then decide whether the regulation is more efficient, or not.

This is the point Friedman was always making in regard to regulation.

So the question, "Is regulation good or bad?" is not the right question. "Is [specific regulation] good or bad?" is a better one.
 
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I'll defend him.

Friedman on regulation, was always trying to make the simple point that regulation has a cost. A regulation should only be considered for implementation if the unregulated free market alternative is costlier than it would be with a regulation in place.

For instance: if your goal was simply to prevent death or injury, and that was your only goal, then you should support a regulation that states that all cars be destroyed and banned, and people are to wear full body, high impact protective suits, gas masks, and be required to stay in a 2 foot thick concrete bunker for the entirety of their lives. As long as everyone has food and water, hypothetically, this would prevent death.

So clearly there is a price for safety. (this is an extreme example for extreme's sake - it's absurd and would be economically and socially disastrous, obviously) If the regulation costs more than not regulating, then it should absolutely be abandoned.

Requiring seatbelts was always a point of good debate, in fact it's probably a good regulation/law. (costs less than NOT having that law) A regulation, however, that requires car manufacturers to equip all cars with 4 wheel drive and electronic traction control, is probably a bad idea. The cost to society would likely outweigh the benefit.

Another example: Banning texting while driving. Clearly, texting while driving is dangerous. No one would dispute this, the evidence is very clear. But if we look at how much people pay for a cell phone plan that incorporates texting as a feature, we can extrapolate how much we value an individual text message. We can then compare that to a Value of Statistical Life calculation, and then decide whether the regulation is more efficient, or not.

This is the point Friedman was always making in regard to regulation.

So the question, "Is regulation good or bad?" is not the right question. "Is [specific regulation] good or bad?" is a better one.

He said he would abolish the FDA, i mean when you abolish the FDA, which regulatory institution are you going to keep? ain't it one of the most important of all, and thus he sees all of their regulations as not worth it.

and do you seriously want to compare death people to the value of text messages?

risking other peoples life for texting while driving seems a total no go to me.
then i would prefer you people stop using seat belts, i think the chances are better for me to not getting hit by someone flying out of his car compared to not being driven over by a texting driver....

I can understand opposition to regulations that regulate risks that only are risks for the user. but when you drive a car, you always endanger other people. i cannot understand the opposition there. sure also there you can take it to far, life is dangerous.
 
Human knowledge has advanced so far that nobody can encompass all of it, even on a superficial level. I may or may not be able to tell whether meat is rotten, just by looking carefully at the time of purchase, but it may not be possible for me to tell whether a complex product utilising modern technology is defective, or even harmful. If, for example, I employ a workman to install a gas central heating system, I don't have the expertise to determine whether that system is venting carbon monoxide into my bedroom, and the only way it may become known is if I don't wake up one morning. In a Libertarian non-system, there might not be an onus on anyone to find out why I didn't wake up, so our incompetent workman never gets detected until so many people have died that the correlation is obvious.

Regulations, however, specify that the workman I employ has to follow a set of criteria that ensure that carbon monoxide is only released into a well-ventilated area where it can't re-enter the house. If he gets it wrong, there are laws that demand that the cause of my unexplained death be determined, and this will lead to exposure of the mistake so that other people won't suffer the same fate.

As with everything else, regulation needs to be applied reasonably, and - being human and fallible - we can get it wrong in either direction. But abolishing all regulation would simply remove the uncertainty, and make sure that we necessarily get it wrong.

Dave
a very good example.
 
He said he would abolish the FDA, i mean when you abolish the FDA, which regulatory institution are you going to keep? ain't it one of the most important of all, and thus he sees all of their regulations as not worth it.

and do you seriously want to compare death people to the value of text messages?

risking other peoples life for texting while driving seems a total no go to me.
then i would prefer you people stop using seat belts, i think the chances are better for me to not getting hit by someone flying out of his car compared to not being driven over by a texting driver....

I can understand opposition to regulations that regulate risks that only are risks for the user. but when you drive a car, you always endanger other people. i cannot understand the opposition there. sure also there you can take it to far, life is dangerous.

This is entirely the point though. The texting thing is a good example, because most texts are so trivial, ie - "whut r u doin 2nite, thinkin bout seein Inception again, wanna go?"

That text is not worth a human life. It's not even worth a cockroach's life. But how many texts are worth a human life? 10? 500 million?

The answer to that question is important. I don't know the answer, but I can tell you what it's not: It's not zero, and it's not infinity. There is an answer. And that's the point.
 
Isn't he basically saying that he wants lawyers, judges and juries to perform the role of the FDA?

Instead of the FDA testing drugs to to make sure they are safe and effective, just have people sue the crap out of them when they are not.

It sounds really persuasive when you hear him make the case, but I don't believe it would work so well in practice.
 
Isn't he basically saying that he wants lawyers, judges and juries to perform the role of the FDA?

Instead of the FDA testing drugs to to make sure they are safe and effective, just have people sue the crap out of them when they are not.

It sounds really persuasive when you hear him make the case, but I don't believe it would work so well in practice.


How do you feel about software regulation? Would you say we need Homeland Security or FISMA to create some new agency to test all software before it is allowed to be online?

I personally don't download software or drivers or anything really, unless it's from a reputable source, or I can verify it's legit through majorgeeks.com or cnet, many of the other sites that perform that type of ratings for you. You can also just do a quick search and see if people in a forum are saying to stay away from it or not.

Just a thought - sure it might be apples and oranges, but tort is of course not the only tool we use to assure safety in less regulated markets.
 
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Just a thought - sure it might be apples and oranges, but tort is of course not the only tool we use to assure safety in less regulated markets.

I think this is key. Each market needs the regulations (self or governmental) tailored to it. Food is something I prefer under government regulation. Software only needs a certain degree of government regulation, but since food poisoning is not an issue with software I can handle more market forces working on that market.
 
imagineaa wrote about human nature.

Humans are by nature greedy. We are also the only species who kills for sport. Thus, regulations protect us from the rest of us.

Regulations are necessary and proper, yet they must allow for the exercise of liberty. Tough call, but imperative.

CDFingers
 

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