Billyjoe,
From the materialist point of view, our actions are all just physics and chemistry. There is no free will. However, the physics and chemistry produce the illusion of free will. This illusion of free will is very real.
In the checker board illusion the difference in shades of grey between the square marked 'A' and 'B' is very real. We definitely do see these shades of grey as very different (have a look). However, if we examine it more closely, we find to our amazement that the shades of grey are actually identical. They just seem to be the same. The difference is an illusion.
It's not that we are mistaken about it . It's not like the person who sees hieroglyphics on ancient coins. He is the only one who "sees" them whereas we all see the different shades of grey.
It's the same with free will. We all seem to have free will but, when we examine it more closely, we find that it's all just physics and chemistry producing the illusion of free will.
Billyjoe, I’m still not sure exactly what you are getting at, but we seem to be in agreement that –illusions or not – ultimately (in reality) there is
no “free will”. The illusion is irrelevant – we are talking about what is TRUE is reality.
And if you do not have “free will” in reality, then this means there is a force (TLOP), which controls your every action cradle to grave. Now what the A-Theists want to assert, is that there is no evidence that this force is conscious. They say (claim) that TLOP
must be non-conscious, but that is patently absurd!
When does a non-conscious, or even a less conscious force tend to control a superior conscious force!?!? Never! I bet you cannot produce ONE single example. It is ALWAYS the case, that Superior consciousnesses tend to control inferior ones. Ergo, if TLOP is controlling you utterly then TLOP (or TLOP’s source) MUST be more conscious then you. To say otherwise is to deny ALL of the evidence. There is NO evidence which supports TLOP as non-conscious. It is only wishful thinking on the part of A-Theists. They don’t want there to be a God, because with no God, the A-Theists think that they are the ones who control. It is pure fantasy. Dogma … plain and simple. There is absolutely NO evidence for this belief.
I do not have Religious beliefs. All I am interested in is what science can tell us about the world. It is the only way we can know anything objectively and objectivity is the only way to arrive at truth. The scientific evidence is, in my opinion consistent with free will being an illusion produced by the physics and chemistry in the brain.
Religious beliefs are almost entirely subjective. As a result there are a million and one varieties of Religious beliefs and no way to chose between them except what feels right. Hence the emotional attachment.
Exactly, and for whatever reason you have an emotional attachment to this idea that TLOP is NOT conscious. It is utterly unsupported by the evidence – All of the evidence says exactly the opposite.
[Afterlife …] It's not that I "believe there is no afterlife". It's that I do not see any point in believing in anything for which there is no evidence.
I thought no evidence one way or the other (i.e. no evidence for True
or False) meant the proposition was Unknown?
It's like the faeries at the bottom of my garden. There is no evidence for them and therefore there is no point in believing in them. There is not even any point in seriously considering the question.
From your point of view there is evidence against faeries in your garden. You have seen your garden many times. You have dug around in it. In all that time you have seen no evidence of faeries.
But if I told you that there
were faeries in
My garden, and I didn’t really explain what I meant by “faeries” how would you know if there really were “faeries” there or not? You have no evidence either way – does that make my claim FALSE by default? I’d say that it makes my claim UNKNOWN from your POV.
Ditto with the "afterlife".
The evidence for the “afterlife” is to be found in the nature of the Truth. What I mean by that is, how do you
know that the Truth can ever be non-beneficial? Are you simply assuming that it can be? Do you have
any evidence for that belief? Once again, I would say that one MUST start with the assumption that it is an UNKNOWN (Is the Truth
ever non-beneficial?).
As I said, I do not believe in free will but the illusion of free will is very real. We all experience it.
Once you are a Fatalist, then you are mere “inches” from your Omniworldline and Logical Deism. A superior entity is controlling you. If you are intrinsically sane, you will be compelled to perceive a new Destiny.
