Regarding Franko...

[Ipecac]

Ipecac,

You are quite welcome. Specific direct questions are usually the easiest to answer.

From an LD standpoint those are differences between individuals, but LD rejects any beliefs which are based purely on dogma; because of tradition, or because some individual – either in the past or present – claimed that we should all do this or that, or live this way, or that way without a valid logical reason for doing so.

Obviously there are logically valid reasons for prohibiting thievery or murder, but telling people what they can and cannot eat is absurd. Benefit is relative to the individual, and LD is a Philosophy and Religion of Individuals. LD is vehemently anti-conformity. We believe in an Objective Moral Code – NOT an Absolute one.

The Graviton is essentially the “Housing” of the Soul. It is the essential YOU. Using the D&D metaphor, your Graviton is the real person, the Player, the physical YOU is just the character.

The Logical Goddess is also a Graviton, but She fills the role of DungeonMaster. Her consciousness is what is generating this universe around you.

This belief (gender aside) is entirely consistent with the concept of a “Deity”, “Soul”, and “Universe” in all major Religions.

And what about "Karma"? Christians don't believe in Karma. Muslims either.

 

[hammegk]

And what about "Karma"? Christians don't believe in Karma. Muslims either.

As ye sow so shall ye reap ... nah, no Karma there. Or, I know, it's gardening advice!

I've read the Quran a time or two; I guess you had to be there, or maybe it doesn't translate well to English.

 

[Franko]

Yeah, and for some reason I think that both Muslims and Christians had these whacky ideas about Good people being rewarded by going to the Metaverse, while evil people would be cast back into the Abyss.

 

[Tricky]

Yeah, and for some reason I think that both Muslims and Christians had these whacky ideas about Good people being rewarded by going to the Metaverse, while evil people would be cast back into the Abyss.

What if suddenly one day you realized you were evil? In the absence of free will, what could you do about it?

 

[Franko]

What if suddenly one day you realized you were evil? In the absence of free will, what could you do about it?

Maybe it’s not really your Destiny to be evil?

Perhaps it is your Fate to be Good? But if you find it beneficial to be Evil you will be Evil, and if you find it Beneficial to be Good you will be Good.

The real question is … what is actually beneficial in reality?

 

[Tricky]

Maybe it’s not really your Destiny to be evil?

Perhaps it is your Fate to be Good? But if you find it beneficial to be Evil you will be Evil, and if you find it Beneficial to be Good you will be Good.

The real question is … what is actually beneficial in reality?

The point is, if you are evil but you did nothing to cause it and there is nothing you can do about it, then you are not evil at all. It is the one who is controlling you that is evil and that is the one who should be cast into the abyss.

 

[Ipecac]

As ye sow so shall ye reap ... nah, no Karma there. Or, I know, it's gardening advice!

I've read the Quran a time or two; I guess you had to be there, or maybe it doesn't translate well to English.

Uh, excuse me? Do you know anything about Christianity today? The sole way to get into heaven is acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. Deeds don't cut it. No karma.

I will admit I know little about the Islamic dogma for getting into heaven. But since people flying airplanes into buildings think that killing the infidels gets them into heaven, it doesn't sound like Karma plays a part.

 

[Franko]

Its difficult to explain Fate to a materialist, the two are kind of contrary to one another ...

The point is, if you are evil but you did nothing to cause it and there is nothing you can do about it, then you are not evil at all.

How so? If you like to kill people it doesn’t really matter to me that you kill people because you had a crappy childhood. That doesn’t make you NOT evil, it just means there is a reason you are evil. The fact that you didn’t have “free will” over who your parents were, or what your childhood was like doesn’t change that fact.

It is the one who is controlling you that is evil and that is the one who should be cast into the abyss.

Not if She is trying to control you to make you NOT evil. It is NOT her fault if you are unable to “alter” your Destiny. Not everyone who had a crappy childhood grows up to be a mass murderer after all.

 

[Loki]

Franko,

Its difficult to explain Fate to a materialist...

I'm in complete agreement with this, but only when it's Fate as in the Logical Deists world.

It is NOT her fault if you are unable to “alter” your Destiny

But we can't "alter" our destiny without Free Will, can we? Your worldview seems to need "free will" as much as any other. You say we have "one shot" at Free Will. How? When? How do you know when you one shot has arrived?

 

[Tricky]

Not if She is trying to control you to make you NOT evil. It is NOT her fault if you are unable to “alter” your Destiny.

If she tries, how can she fail? You have no will to oppose her. Is it Destiny then that is controlling both you and the Goddess? In that case, Destiny is the source of evil and IT should be cast into the abyss.

 

[Franko]

Loki,

I'm in complete agreement with this, but only when it's Fate as in the Logical Deists world.

Its hard to explain a concept which requires an understanding of God to a person who asserts there is no god. It’s kind of like trying to explain rotational progression to a person who believes that the Earth is Flat (no offense meant).

But we can't "alter" our destiny without Free Will, can we?

Well, how do you know it is not your ultimate Destiny to become a Theist or Deist in the future? Perhaps that is your Fate?

No “free will” is required.

Your worldview seems to need "free will" as much as any other.

Not at all. Like I said, it is difficult to explain to a pseudo-materialist/Atheist.

We obey the Laws of Physics – end of story.

You say we have "one shot" at Free Will. How? When? How do you know when you one shot has arrived?

If you don’t reach the Fateline while you live, then you are forced to it when you die.

All your Logic and Experiences will be useless to you, and you will only have your intrinsic nature to guide you – True Free Will. … Free of any other influences then who, and what, you are deep down in your Soul.

 

[Franko]

If she tries, how can she fail? You have no will to oppose her.

1) She didn’t create you.
2) She is not Omnipotent in the Christian sense of the Word.
3) Ultimately She doesn’t fail you. Some Entities don’t want to go to heaven. Eternity terrifies them, they would prefer nonexistence; She gives them what they want – what they desire in their hearts.

Is it Destiny then that is controlling both you and the Goddess?

She is also bound by Fate.

The Force (or Law) of Gravity is Fate. The Goddess just happens to be the greatest source of Gravity; therefore, Her name is often synonymous with it – as in Lady Fate (Fortuna). She is like the living symbol of the thing (Gravity).

In that case, Destiny is the source of evil and IT should be cast into the abyss.

Evil serves a purpose, or it would have been annihilated completely long ago. Evil imparts motion to the system. Without it, everything would stagnate and eventually grind to a halt.

But the Source of Evil is in the Abyss (in the Past).

 

[hammegk]

Uh, excuse me? Do you know anything about Christianity today? The sole way to get into heaven is acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal saviour.

Karma is working as we chat/exist. Heaven is a longer term problem wouldn't you agree?

Since Gutenberg's little invention, you can form you own opinions more easily. If the major organized-religion leadership are Xian rather than updated E. Gantry's that would be scary.

Re maniacs: the karma that carried them through the act must have been overpowering.

 

[Tricky]

Evil serves a purpose, or it would have been annihilated completely long ago. Evil imparts motion to the system. Without it, everything would stagnate and eventually grind to a halt.

So evil is an integral part of the plan, without which it could not exist? Then we should not speak of evil as a bad thing. It is merely part of fate. So when you speak of atheists as being evil, you mean they are as important to the goddess as deists or theists. Funny. It always sounded like it had a bad connotation to you. In fact, the word "evil" itself has a sort of nasty ring to it. However, now that I see that you do not see evil as wrong, but simply inevitable, I realize that you were not insulting atheists by calling them evil, but rather you were calling them "essential".

I feel much better now.

 

[Ipecac]

Karma is working as we chat/exist. Heaven is a longer term problem wouldn't you agree?

Since Gutenberg's little invention, you can form you own opinions more easily. If the major organized-religion leadership are Xian rather than updated E. Gantry's that would be scary.

Re maniacs: the karma that carried them through the act must have been overpowering.

I'm not even going to pretend I understand what that means.

We just had a huge discussion on this board about Christian grace. I really doubt you'd find many Christians who agree with your statement that Christianity espouses karma.

Another question. Among the many, many, tenets of these religions, how does the lay person LD follower know which tenets to follow? Any of them? None of them?

 

[Franko]

Tricky,

So evil is an integral part of the plan, without which it could not exist? Then we should not speak of evil as a bad thing.

Ohh No, I never said or implied that. I simply said that Evil serves a useful purpose. That doesn’t make it NOT evil.

I always wonder if you are actually much smarter or much dumber than you appear? In either probability it is a bad thing all around.

It is merely part of fate.

Exactly right, without FALSE, there can be no TRUE.

So when you speak of atheists as being evil, you mean they are as important to the goddess as deists or theists. Funny. It always sounded like it had a bad connotation to you. In fact, the word "evil" itself has a sort of nasty ring to it. However, now that I see that you do not see evil as wrong, but simply inevitable, I realize that you were not insulting atheists by calling them evil, but rather you were calling them "essential".

I feel much better now.

It seems to me, that only someone who was going out of their way to misunderstand (or misrepresent) what I said could do such an adequate job of it.

I hope you feel better A-Theist. One day … sooner then you think … you will cease to exist.

 

[Tricky]

Tricky,
Ohh No, I never said or implied that. I simply said that Evil serves a useful purpose. That doesn’t make it NOT evil.

You said, Franko,

Evil imparts motion to the system. Without it, everything would stagnate and eventually grind to a halt.

You have stated that if evil didn't exist, everything would stagnate and grind to a halt. That can only mean that evil is essential to a vital system. Also, as pointed out earlier, this evil originates from the Goddess (or from fate), but NOT from individuals. They have no free will, therfore they cannot generate evil.

I always wonder if you are actually much smarter or much dumber than you appear? In either probability it is a bad thing all around.

Hint: It's the "smarter" one. I'm only playing dumb to walk you through this scenario of your own creation.

Exactly right, without FALSE, there can be no TRUE.

Nice aphorism, but it leads you no closer to truth.

It seems to me, that only someone who was going out of their way to misunderstand (or misrepresent) what I said could do such an adequate job of it.

Not trying to misunderstand your at all, and I am representing you exactly as you represent yourself. I am merely pointing out the logical inconsistancies in your beliefs.

I hope you feel better A-Theist. One day … sooner then you think … you will cease to exist.

I am sure this is true, as will we all. It does not scare me. Nor do you.

 

[Franko]

Tricky,

You have stated that if evil didn't exist, everything would stagnate and grind to a halt. That can only mean that evil is essential to a vital system. Also, as pointed out earlier, this evil originates from the Goddess (or from fate), but NOT from individuals.

That’s not what I said at all. I said specifically: The Goddess did NOT create You (or any of us).

They have no free will, therefore they cannot generate evil.

I said specifically – either you are intrinsically Good, or intrinsically Evil. The LG has nothing to do with it. She is just sorting the Good from the Bad. The Good She keeps, the Bad are discarded and go back to whence they came …

Hint: It's the "smarter" one. I'm only playing dumb to walk you through this scenario of your own creation.

… or Your own creation. For all you know, you are the only entity to actually exist, and I am simply a figment of your subconscious imagination.

Not trying to misunderstand your at all, and I am representing you exactly as you represent yourself. I am merely pointing out the logical inconsistancies in your beliefs.

You always make this kind of general accusation, without ever specifying the actual inconsistency. Rather self-serving and intellectually deceitful on your part, but you are Tricky after all. Do you think you are really that clever and NO one notices?

 

[Tricky]

You always make this kind of general accusation, without ever specifying the actual inconsistency. Rather self-serving and intellectually deceitful on your part, but you are Tricky after all. Do you think you are really that clever and NO one notices?

Do you think no one notices that I have posted this about a dozen times:
***
Which of the following is inconsistant with Logical deism?
1) You have no choice.
2) There are consequences for the choices you make.
***
You have supported both these statements in various places. Recently you tried to weasle out by saying you didn't make choices, but you never explained the "consequences" part. Consequences of what? The choices the Goddess makes? Choices Fate makes? If you truly have no free will, then nothing you do has any consequences. It is all decided by others.

Now, I have specified one of your many inconsistancies. Please do not lie (again) and say I have not.

 

[The Fool]

Hey franko...

close your eyes...... you just made the world go away. Spooky isn't it. Ok, you can open your eyes now.

Now go back to dancing for our amusement, I'll let you know when you can stop.