Regarding Franko...
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Surely Franko is right about free will.
All there is is TLOP.
Even if we accept randomness it doesn't amount to free will.
Why are we all so anxious to believe in free will?
There is certainly an illusion of free will and such a good illusion that we can more or less carry on as if we do have free will except, that is, when it comes to admitting and being honest about the fact that it actually doesn't exist.
A materialist, unless he redefines the term so as to make it meaningless, must surely accept that free will is an illusion.
All there is is TLOP.
Even if we accept randomness it doesn't amount to free will.
Why are we all so anxious to believe in free will?
There is certainly an illusion of free will and such a good illusion that we can more or less carry on as if we do have free will except, that is, when it comes to admitting and being honest about the fact that it actually doesn't exist.
A materialist, unless he redefines the term so as to make it meaningless, must surely accept that free will is an illusion.
Jedi Knight
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Ipecac said:Just to follow up . . .
I had leftovers for dinner tonight.
I have no idea what this says about free will so if you will tell me, Franko, I'd appreciate it.
You should have hopped on the Metro and got yourself something to eat. There is a mall off Vienna that has a good restaurant inside. A mexican food place too--I think it is called Tex-Mex.
JK
Checkmite
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Franko said:
Wait a second....if he ceased to exist, how could he understand anything, much less whether it mattered or not?
Franko said:
When I was little, before my great-grandfather died, he was bedridden in the hospital for a while. I was genuinely worried about it, whilst my parents kept telling me "I'm sure it's nothing to worry about, it's probably just a bad case of the flu."
The TRUTH was, he had cancer, and was suffering greatly with pain. A few months later, he was dead. In his case, the truth was most decidedly not beneficial - for him or anyone else.
Ipecac
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Okay, I was somewhat disappointed the other night when logical deism didn't seem to give me any guidance for dinner. (Thank you for the suggestion, JK, there are certainly a lot of good restaurants in the area!) So, here are a few more questions.
What does logical deism give me in the way of day to day advice on how to live my life? Christianity and Judaism have a whole bunch of commandments and other examples I can use every single day! Islam certainly has its share of rules. So, what does LD have that will help me live my daily life?
Or is it more a philosophy and less a practical religion?
What does logical deism give me in the way of day to day advice on how to live my life? Christianity and Judaism have a whole bunch of commandments and other examples I can use every single day! Islam certainly has its share of rules. So, what does LD have that will help me live my daily life?
Or is it more a philosophy and less a practical religion?
Ipecac,
LD is modeled after the mystery religions of Ancient times.
At the ground floor (lower circles of initiation) it is more a general philosophy – a worldview.
You can still be a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu and be a Logical Deist at the same time. In fact, Logical deists consider anyone who believes in the 3 tenets to be a fellow Logical Deist. Calling yourself a Logical Deist just makes it official.
At the deeper levels (higher circles) Logical Deism becomes more of a “Religion” in the typical sense of the word.
Level 1: Believes the following:
1) God
2) Soul
3) Karma (or ultimate consequences/divine justice)
(essentially this set includes all major religions)
Level 2: Believes the 3 tenets are logical conclusions, and calls himself a Logical Deist.
Level 3: as Level 2, and is also a Fatalist.
… and so on …
LD is modeled after the mystery religions of Ancient times.
At the ground floor (lower circles of initiation) it is more a general philosophy – a worldview.
You can still be a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu and be a Logical Deist at the same time. In fact, Logical deists consider anyone who believes in the 3 tenets to be a fellow Logical Deist. Calling yourself a Logical Deist just makes it official.
At the deeper levels (higher circles) Logical Deism becomes more of a “Religion” in the typical sense of the word.
Level 1: Believes the following:
1) God
2) Soul
3) Karma (or ultimate consequences/divine justice)
(essentially this set includes all major religions)
Level 2: Believes the 3 tenets are logical conclusions, and calls himself a Logical Deist.
Level 3: as Level 2, and is also a Fatalist.
… and so on …
Ipecac
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Franko said:
THANK YOU! I've been asking this question for days. Now I have some understanding of what you believe.
How do you stand on moral positions which differ between religions? For example, keeping kosher versus not keeping kosher? Eating cows versus not eating cows? The ancient religions are not all homogenous. How do you reconcile the contradictions?
Franko said:
Good to be around again, Franko
But, as you can see from the time it took me to respond to your post, my time is limited these days (well, it always has been but the necessary things are getting some more of their deserved attention now)
As for "free will" and not "God" or "Afterlife".....
The illusion of free will is very real. It's as real as that checkered board illusion with the different shades of grey which are actually the same. "God" and "Afterlife" are emotional attachments only and, as you know, I have no emotional attachments to either.
regards,
BillyJoe.
Back when Franko still occasionally posted coherent posts (it was in some early free-will thread) he explained his position on free will like this: (not a direct quote)Ipecac said:
Even though you think that you are conciously making a choice, what really happens is that there is some chemical process going on in your brain that causes some of the neurons fire and some not. The end of this process is that you end up with a decision. Since you cannot consciously affect the process, you don't have a real control over the choice and you don't have a free will.
I partly agree with that argument. However, I think we don't know enough about internal workings of the brain to say that the situation is necessarily so. At least I don't know enough about them.
I haven't bothered to debate with Franko because it seems that he uses a lot of words to mean something different that they usually mean and he doesn't define his terms.
Franko said:
jkorosi, you misunderstand Franko's reply to Ipecac (unless, of course, you are answering tongue in cheek).jkorosi said:Wait a second....if he ceased to exist, how could he understand anything, much less whether it mattered or not?
Substitute "die" for "cease to exist" - which is Ipecac's opinion as to what happens when you die - and remember that, in Franko's opinion, there is life after death and you might get a sense of his meaning.
I have a similar story of a man of about sixty-five who developed an illness which runs a benign course for several years without causing any symptoms but which eventally turns malignant resulting in death within six months or so. His daughter was adamant that he not be told his diagnosis because he would simply give up. He was an Italian migrant who didn't speak or understand a word of English so the diagnosis could easily be kept from him. As it turned, after about two and a half years, he died of a sudden heart attack just as he was about to leave Italy to return to Australia after a three month holiday there to see his relatives and friends.Franko[/i] [B]… and what makes you assume that the TRUTH is ever not beneficial? Do you have any evidence to support this claim? [/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jkorosi said:
I couldn't imagine a happier ending for him.
The truth very likely would have ruined the last two and a half years of his life.
However, despite isolated cases such as these, I think that as a general rule Franko is right
regards,
BillyJoe
Ipecac
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LW said:
Thanks, LW. That's a clear explanation and one I haven't heard.
I would put this in the category of information that is interesting to know but utterly useless. Whether we have "free will" or it's a chemical process in the brain is completely irrelevant to our daily lives. If I know that I have no free will, it doesn't change anything.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Back to the original intent, i.e. Regarding Franko...
Folks, I've pretty much given up my troll baiting ways for the last week or so, but I gotta tell ya, it gets easier as time goes on.
I'm to the point now, that when I occasionally take a glance at some of the discussions over here and I happen across Franko's LD driven posts, I recognize it as the same ol' stuff and move on. There's been no advancement, no progress, nothing conceeded, so why bother?
Give it up and he'll go away. I promise you.
Upchurch
Folks, I've pretty much given up my troll baiting ways for the last week or so, but I gotta tell ya, it gets easier as time goes on.
I'm to the point now, that when I occasionally take a glance at some of the discussions over here and I happen across Franko's LD driven posts, I recognize it as the same ol' stuff and move on. There's been no advancement, no progress, nothing conceeded, so why bother?
Give it up and he'll go away. I promise you.
Upchurch
Ipecac,
You are quite welcome. Specific direct questions are usually the easiest to answer.
From an LD standpoint those are differences between individuals, but LD rejects any beliefs which are based purely on dogma; because of tradition, or because some individual – either in the past or present – claimed that we should all do this or that, or live this way, or that way without a valid logical reason for doing so.
Obviously there are logically valid reasons for prohibiting thievery or murder, but telling people what they can and cannot eat is absurd. Benefit is relative to the individual, and LD is a Philosophy and Religion of Individuals. LD is vehemently anti-conformity. We believe in an Objective Moral Code – NOT an Absolute one.
The Graviton is essentially the “Housing” of the Soul. It is the essential YOU. Using the D&D metaphor, your Graviton is the real person, the Player, the physical YOU is just the character.
The Logical Goddess is also a Graviton, but She fills the role of DungeonMaster. Her consciousness is what is generating this universe around you.
This belief (gender aside) is entirely consistent with the concept of a “Deity”, “Soul”, and “Universe” in all major Religions.
You are quite welcome. Specific direct questions are usually the easiest to answer.
From an LD standpoint those are differences between individuals, but LD rejects any beliefs which are based purely on dogma; because of tradition, or because some individual – either in the past or present – claimed that we should all do this or that, or live this way, or that way without a valid logical reason for doing so.
Obviously there are logically valid reasons for prohibiting thievery or murder, but telling people what they can and cannot eat is absurd. Benefit is relative to the individual, and LD is a Philosophy and Religion of Individuals. LD is vehemently anti-conformity. We believe in an Objective Moral Code – NOT an Absolute one.
The Graviton is essentially the “Housing” of the Soul. It is the essential YOU. Using the D&D metaphor, your Graviton is the real person, the Player, the physical YOU is just the character.
The Logical Goddess is also a Graviton, but She fills the role of DungeonMaster. Her consciousness is what is generating this universe around you.
This belief (gender aside) is entirely consistent with the concept of a “Deity”, “Soul”, and “Universe” in all major Religions.
Billyjoe,
Your level-headedness has been sorely missed.
But it sounds to me like you do have emotional attachments! You obviously have an emotional attachment to the concept of “free will”. Except you don’t call your Religious emotional attachments, “Religious Emotional Attachments”, you call yours “very real illusions”, or “necessary illusions”, but I see no difference.
Why is it that you feel your Religious beliefs should have a different standard applied then the Religious beliefs of others?
There is no evidence for “afterlife”; ergo you believe there is no “afterlife”.
Likewise there is NO evidence for “free will”; ergo you believe in “free will”?
Why the double standard?
Your level-headedness has been sorely missed.
But it sounds to me like you do have emotional attachments! You obviously have an emotional attachment to the concept of “free will”. Except you don’t call your Religious emotional attachments, “Religious Emotional Attachments”, you call yours “very real illusions”, or “necessary illusions”, but I see no difference.
Why is it that you feel your Religious beliefs should have a different standard applied then the Religious beliefs of others?
There is no evidence for “afterlife”; ergo you believe there is no “afterlife”.
Likewise there is NO evidence for “free will”; ergo you believe in “free will”?
Why the double standard?
LW,
explain the part you don’t agree with?
So is this A-Theism of the Gaps … YET AGAIN?!?!?
So let me get this straight … you don’t understand it … so you just declare that you have “free will”???
Is that how it works? So, in similar fashion, if a Christian claims he doesn’t really understand “God”, he can simply assume (or declare) that God exist?
If NOT, why NOT? How is the Christian doing anything different then what you are doing?
Yeah … define “free will” for me, and explain why you believe that you have more of it then the Moon does?
… or is it sooo complex that you can’t explain it? can’t explain it – but you are still certain you must have “free will”? Great Logic – no wonder you haven’t debated me …
explain the part you don’t agree with?
So is this A-Theism of the Gaps … YET AGAIN?!?!?
So let me get this straight … you don’t understand it … so you just declare that you have “free will”???
Is that how it works? So, in similar fashion, if a Christian claims he doesn’t really understand “God”, he can simply assume (or declare) that God exist?
If NOT, why NOT? How is the Christian doing anything different then what you are doing?
Yeah … define “free will” for me, and explain why you believe that you have more of it then the Moon does?
… or is it sooo complex that you can’t explain it? can’t explain it – but you are still certain you must have “free will”? Great Logic – no wonder you haven’t debated me …
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Re: Re: Back to the original intent, i.e. Regarding Franko...
Calm down, hammegk. This is not a personal attack on you or anyone. I'm just trying help the troll baiters out there, should they want it.
Upchurch
Umm, I was refering to the R&P board in general. Franko's posts are all over the board.hammegk said:
Calm down, hammegk. This is not a personal attack on you or anyone. I'm just trying help the troll baiters out there, should they want it.
Upchurch
And to PROVE he actually means what he says … (yeah that’s sarcasm)
Upchurch … honestly I don’t think anyone noticed you were even gone. Why don’t you “disappear” again and we’ll re-check and see if anyone NOT notices again?
Why don’t you just Give it up, and go away. You promise I.