Re: Underdown and Release Form (name changed at request of thread starter)
- Thread starter Clancie
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Thanz
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Just a guess, but it could be that they are instructing you to continue the list of contacts on to the next page if you run out of room in the space provided. If that is the case, however, it seems like a weird place to put that instruction.CFLarsen said:
So, I dunno either.
Is there speculation that a page is omitted?
I can't access the links (probably due to some Norton security feature) so I can't comment on the version that is posted. However, I sent Darat all the pages. They were complete, with no indication otherwise, exactly as I received them from Underdown. There was no indication that anything was continued on another page.
The easiest solution, if anyone has the slightest suspicion is to email Jim Underdown (CFI-West) and ask him to look it over and see if anything is missing.
That would resolve the whole matter...completely.
Thanz
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Clancie -
At the top of page 4 of 4, it says (inblock capitals, underlined):
"PLEASE CONTINUE ONTO THE NEXT PAGE"
We are speculating why it would say this on page 4 of 4, when there would be no "next page".
If you have the originals, mayboe you can shed some light on this.
At the top of page 4 of 4, it says (inblock capitals, underlined):
"PLEASE CONTINUE ONTO THE NEXT PAGE"
We are speculating why it would say this on page 4 of 4, when there would be no "next page".
If you have the originals, mayboe you can shed some light on this.
Okay, Thanz, I see what you're talking about.
Since that is just the final page asking for Contact Information if needed, I assume that the direction"Continue onto the Next Page"" means to write on the back of the paper if you need more space to put your contact information (business/professional contacts that are asked for, if any).
I barely paid attention to that page, since it is basically just requiring people to disclose the details of anyspecfic relationships (if any) that they marked on the first three pages of the form.
I think the statement just means "use the back of the paper if you need more space to elaborate on this." (Probably in hard copy the words look a bit different than they would online. Looking at the document in person, the direction seems totally innocuous.).
But...if there's the slightest question of deception--or even that this isn't the full and complete document--I would recommend that someone email Underdown and ask him to have a look. My experience was he was very pleasant and prompt in responding.
Since that is just the final page asking for Contact Information if needed, I assume that the direction"Continue onto the Next Page"" means to write on the back of the paper if you need more space to put your contact information (business/professional contacts that are asked for, if any).
I barely paid attention to that page, since it is basically just requiring people to disclose the details of anyspecfic relationships (if any) that they marked on the first three pages of the form.
I think the statement just means "use the back of the paper if you need more space to elaborate on this." (Probably in hard copy the words look a bit different than they would online. Looking at the document in person, the direction seems totally innocuous.).
But...if there's the slightest question of deception--or even that this isn't the full and complete document--I would recommend that someone email Underdown and ask him to have a look. My experience was he was very pleasant and prompt in responding.
Babylon Sister
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Thanz said:
Is it possible that this is a printing error and that line was supposed to print on the bottom of page three?
Clancie,
I am extremely suspicious of your claim that you cannot read the pages. You were able to download from that directory before. Now, you cannot.
And suddenly, it is a problem what "version" we are looking at.
I have posted the pages I got from Darat. Darat can confirm this. If you have concerns about what version it is, I can email you the pages. Not a problem. I am more than willing. My email is webmaster@skepticreport.com
That is the easiest solution. Not postponing this whole discussion by emailing Jim Underdown.
I am extremely suspicious of your claim that you cannot read the pages. You were able to download from that directory before. Now, you cannot.
And suddenly, it is a problem what "version" we are looking at.
I have posted the pages I got from Darat. Darat can confirm this. If you have concerns about what version it is, I can email you the pages. Not a problem. I am more than willing. My email is webmaster@skepticreport.com
That is the easiest solution. Not postponing this whole discussion by emailing Jim Underdown.
Thanz
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He doesn't want people to tell lies on his show and this is a bad thing? Don't we want the sitters to tell the truth?TLN said:
You don't think a genuine medium would want to prevent jokers from coming on his show and lying theur a$$es off to try and make him look bad?
Also, the document is much more about the Producer than JE himself. The producer has an interest in trying to make sure the claims of fraud are as reduced as possible.
Thanz said:
Whoa...What "lies"? That JE is not talking to the dead? Sorry, JE has to prove that. Claiming that he is not is not a "lie".
That JE has been caught hot reading? Not a lie. He has.
What "lies" are you talking about?
Thanz said:
If JE is a real medium, he could merely dazzle them with a few special hits for them.
Thanz said:
JE is also a producer. We have been through this.
CFLarsen said:
I can confirm that the links are to the pages I scanned that came via Linda from Clancie. As far as I can tell the pages have not been altered.
Hi Darat,
It sounds like all four pages were posted exactly as sent. You have the hard copy, so what do you think of my comment above re: page 4 of 4?
They are asking sitters to elaborate if they said on the earlier pages that they had any prior connections to the show. It makes sense to give them the extra space on the back, if they need it.
It sounds like all four pages were posted exactly as sent. You have the hard copy, so what do you think of my comment above re: page 4 of 4?
They are asking sitters to elaborate if they said on the earlier pages that they had any prior connections to the show. It makes sense to give them the extra space on the back, if they need it.
One more thing....
It sounds like Darat received exactly what I sent and that Claus has scanned that in, all four pages.
But if there are any doubts that this is what Underdown got from CO--en toto--and what he sent to me--en toto--then...please! email him and ask him to take a look and see!
I feel convinced that these four pages are all there are--with sitters being given the option of writing more details on the back of p. 4, if needed.
I'm satisfied.
But if anyone else feels suspicious, you definitely should...check...it....out at the source!
It sounds like Darat received exactly what I sent and that Claus has scanned that in, all four pages.
But if there are any doubts that this is what Underdown got from CO--en toto--and what he sent to me--en toto--then...please! email him and ask him to take a look and see!
I feel convinced that these four pages are all there are--with sitters being given the option of writing more details on the back of p. 4, if needed.
I'm satisfied.
But if anyone else feels suspicious, you definitely should...check...it....out at the source!Thanz said:
Not at all the point. The point is, if I did lie and Edward was really talking to my dead relatives, he'd know. If I made up a completely ficticious relative, he'd know.
But the fact is he can't know, so he has to ask us not to play this trick on him.
NoZed Avenger
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Stream of consciousness points on this, after a brief perusal.
Warning: This is a quick look, only. Also, I do not practice in NY, whose laws may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
1. I don't see that this document helps or harms a claim for hot reading. The language of the document on not giving information to JE or the show (condensed to "JE" for the rest of this) is self-serving on that, but of course only JE can enforce the contract. Say the person gives information, but signs anyway -- it has, believe it or not, been known to happen.
Also, the form itself has 2 sections where such information is given, not counting the signature page, in which you give your name, date of birth, telephone numbers, and address. (By the way: Date of birth?! I am not familiar with any agreements or waivers - outside the medical field - where that is required. Why do they need a date of birth?)
On page 1, you can list if you've had conversations previously, listing the name and relationship of whomever was talked about previously. A handy reminder, if any such conversations occurred.
On page 4, (less likely to apply) you list any business or professional relationships. A nice source of information.
2. The person appearing on the show agrees to allow JE to use their image, voice, appearance, information, and etc. for all eternity all over the universe. The language here is sloppy, but it seems that the use is limited to what occurred on the show. The language of the contract could be argued (it is just hazy enough) that JE owns your image and likeness, period, but a court is unlikely to allow that interpretation. Certainly, JE is allowed to use your likeness for promos and shows any time and in any way he likes.
3. It is understood that the program or any related works may contain factual and/or fictional scenes. Oh, and you waive rights for slander or libel based on that.
While public policy considerations may not allow it, a literal reading of the first page, combined with the Hold Harmless language, would allow JE to edit scenes or create purely fictional ones using your name and likeness, and you would have no right to ensure that they final product was factually true or to demand that it be accurate. Moreover, you agree to hold JE harmless for defamation, libel or slander (even intentional).
So, your signature allows JE to edit and make purely fictional scenes up about you, while simultaneously agreeing that you will hold him harmless for defamation of your character. Nice.
Whether you ever think anything like this would ever happen, I would advise any client against signing this document based on that scenario, alone.
4. It is noted at least twice that the opinions being given by JE are not intended to be a form of advice, instructiuon, counsel, or factual statement in any way whatsoever, but is produced for entertainment purposes only.
This seems a bit of a stopper. You agree that nothing being said is meant to be factual?!
No one has a problem with that? Really?
5. You agree that you may find out different or additional facts later, but that this agreement remains in force, notwithstanding. This is part and parcel of no. 3, above -- even if you discover that something is untrue, the show can edit at will and has sole control over the information.
6. You agree to arbitration - you give up your right to court. Arbitration is private and the conflicts (and the results) are usually considered confidential. By the way, you also agree to appear in Manhatten for the arbitration and any related hearings.
That is my first run-through. I'd want to spend more time with it to actually parse the language in detail, but those are the points that drew my eye first.
NA
Warning: This is a quick look, only. Also, I do not practice in NY, whose laws may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
1. I don't see that this document helps or harms a claim for hot reading. The language of the document on not giving information to JE or the show (condensed to "JE" for the rest of this) is self-serving on that, but of course only JE can enforce the contract. Say the person gives information, but signs anyway -- it has, believe it or not, been known to happen.
Also, the form itself has 2 sections where such information is given, not counting the signature page, in which you give your name, date of birth, telephone numbers, and address. (By the way: Date of birth?! I am not familiar with any agreements or waivers - outside the medical field - where that is required. Why do they need a date of birth?)
On page 1, you can list if you've had conversations previously, listing the name and relationship of whomever was talked about previously. A handy reminder, if any such conversations occurred.
On page 4, (less likely to apply) you list any business or professional relationships. A nice source of information.
2. The person appearing on the show agrees to allow JE to use their image, voice, appearance, information, and etc. for all eternity all over the universe. The language here is sloppy, but it seems that the use is limited to what occurred on the show. The language of the contract could be argued (it is just hazy enough) that JE owns your image and likeness, period, but a court is unlikely to allow that interpretation. Certainly, JE is allowed to use your likeness for promos and shows any time and in any way he likes.
3. It is understood that the program or any related works may contain factual and/or fictional scenes. Oh, and you waive rights for slander or libel based on that.
While public policy considerations may not allow it, a literal reading of the first page, combined with the Hold Harmless language, would allow JE to edit scenes or create purely fictional ones using your name and likeness, and you would have no right to ensure that they final product was factually true or to demand that it be accurate. Moreover, you agree to hold JE harmless for defamation, libel or slander (even intentional).
So, your signature allows JE to edit and make purely fictional scenes up about you, while simultaneously agreeing that you will hold him harmless for defamation of your character. Nice.
Whether you ever think anything like this would ever happen, I would advise any client against signing this document based on that scenario, alone.
4. It is noted at least twice that the opinions being given by JE are not intended to be a form of advice, instructiuon, counsel, or factual statement in any way whatsoever, but is produced for entertainment purposes only.
This seems a bit of a stopper. You agree that nothing being said is meant to be factual?!
No one has a problem with that? Really?
5. You agree that you may find out different or additional facts later, but that this agreement remains in force, notwithstanding. This is part and parcel of no. 3, above -- even if you discover that something is untrue, the show can edit at will and has sole control over the information.
6. You agree to arbitration - you give up your right to court. Arbitration is private and the conflicts (and the results) are usually considered confidential. By the way, you also agree to appear in Manhatten for the arbitration and any related hearings.
That is my first run-through. I'd want to spend more time with it to actually parse the language in detail, but those are the points that drew my eye first.
NA