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RE: Pardalis: "anti-semitic garbage"

You say this....

Oliver said:
I know what you mean - but the list I provided isn't proven as being propaganda yet. So I wait until someone is able to provide evidence concerning the data as being propaganda -AKA- manipulated facts. From what I can tell they are facts, independent from it's source.
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And yet, when provided that evidence you asked for, it wasn't good enough...

Oliver said:
Okay, accepted. So 1% of 99% is not entirely correct. Go on. :)
Remember: You still prefer the "Freedoms" explanation instead the "Foreign Policies".
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And when told that 2/3 of it was propoganda, you still didn't like it....

Oliver said:
That's enough to make my point. :p
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So, does 100% of it need to be proven propoganda to show that the piece has an unfair bias? It seems your original quote here was not entirely sincere...I don't think you really do have as open a mind about this as you pretend to.
 
NobbyNobbs said:
You say this....

And yet, when provided that evidence you asked for, it wasn't good enough...

And when told that 2/3 of it was propoganda, you still didn't like it....

So, does 100% of it need to be proven propoganda to show that the piece has an unfair bias? It seems your original quote here was not entirely sincere...I don't think you really do have as open a mind about this as you pretend to.
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I've read the list and I didn't find any major flaws in it. But if Gumboot, who is very critical concerning my world-view, gives me 30%, that's more I ever expected from him. So, yes - I'm happy with that.

BUT: Since I barely know you in contrast to Gumboot, I wouldn't accept the same Statement from you until you point out the flaws in the list.

No one did this so far besides stating things like "Commie-Source", "Zionism-Hater-Source" and some minor complaints. So personally I think it's still valid.
 
Oliver said:
Ding Dong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Day_War
" In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent invasion by Egypt.[1] "
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A technical truism, if highly dishonest.

Unlike Iraq, there was a massive military buildup on both ends of Israel by several different countries. That something bad was imminent was quite obvious.

And they did the right thing -- as they got recordings shortly thereafter of phone conversations between Egypt and Syria's leader discussing how to weasel out of their invasion plans.

Shortly thereafter, Egypt's leader resigned for planning the attack. Why do that if you're just some innocent grandstander?

"Ok, I'm just gonna move this steak knife under your child's chin. Just being an innocent guy here. Hey, don't push my hand away! Don't pre-emptively attack me! -- I haven't done anything wrong yet!"
 
Oliver said:
That's my agenda here, Tailgater: Don't accept a stupid: "We are good - the rest is evil". I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm wont be loved for pointing out a more gradual world then the "White and Black" world portrayed by US-Media and US-Government. And I don't believe it's wrong to explain it to "Black&White"-thinkers.
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Oliver you are preaching to the international choir. 90% of the worlds nations agree with you about how evil the United States and Israel are. You can't seem to take yes for an answer.
 
Texas said:
Oliver you are preaching to the international choir. 90% of the worlds nations agree with you about how evil the United States and Israel are. You can't seem to take yes for an answer.
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No, it's not like that.
Oliver can be illogical and over-stretched. But he is more reacting to the idiots here who want to claim that everything Bush does, or Israel does, is right, and the rest of the world is evil and out to get them.

Really; even you yourself have shown signs of over-stretch when you talk about the rest of the world. Taking criticism is a sign of maturity; but there is a kernel of posters here who will go out of their way for partisan political reasons to pretend Bush or Israel have done nothing wrong and will claim the rest of the world is evil, socialist, unfree and anti-American. It's pure garbage, and Oliver is mostly reacting to that.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the Palestinians, and many Arab governments, are barking mad, and manage to **** everything up for themselves given half the chance. But this routine bashing of Oliver is hysterically over-done sometimes.

Do I think Israel has every right to exist? Of course.
Do I think Israel's enemies are often motivated by malice and stupidity? Of course.
Do I support the Palestinians? I support (as does the Israel govt) a two-state solution.
Other than that, like I said, the Palestinians love shooting themselves in the foot.

Do I think the USA is evil? Nope.
Do I think it actually deserved 9/11? Not at all.
Do I think Osama is scum? You betcha that I think Osama is scum.

But do I think Israel or the USA have sometimes acted maliciously themselves? Yes.

Do I think the USA deserves criticism? Sometimes. Like everyone else.

If people cannot take criticism, then by golly, they should grow a pair of balls and a thicker skin. Criticisng the USA is not equivalent at all to being anti-American; yet there are some dishonest posters here who will claim exactly that.

What do I think of Oliver's over-stretch when it happens? I think it's junk. But one thing I've noticed; Oliver extremely rarely gets abusive, unlike many of those dumping unfairly and dishonestly on him. And of course they prove very well that Oliver is hardly alone in over-stretching.
 
Gurdur said:
No, it's not like that.
Oliver can be illogical and over-stretched. But he is more reacting to the idiots here who want to claim that everything Bush does, or Israel does, is right, and the rest of the world is evil and out to get them.

Really; even you yourself have shown signs of over-stretch when you talk about the rest of the world. Taking criticism is a sign of maturity; but there is a kernel of posters here who will go out of their way for partisan political reasons to pretend Bush or Israel have done nothing wrong and will claim the rest of the world is evil, socialist, unfree and anti-American. It's pure garbage, and Oliver is mostly reacting to that.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the Palestinians, and many Arab governments, are barking mad, and manage to **** everything up for themselves given half the chance. But this routine bashing of Oliver is hysterically over-done sometimes.

Do I think Israel has every right to exist? Of course.
Do I think Israel's enemies are often motivated by malice and stupidity? Of course.
Do I support the Palestinians? I support (as does the Israel govt) a two-state solution.
Other than that, like I said, the Palestinians love shooting themselves in the foot.

Do I think the USA is evil? Nope.
Do I think it actually deserved 9/11? Not at all.
Do I think Osama is scum? You betcha that I think Osama is scum.

But do I think Israel or the USA have sometimes acted maliciously themselves? Yes.

Do I think the USA deserves criticism? Sometimes. Like everyone else.

If people cannot take criticism, then by golly, they should grow a pair of balls and a thicker skin. Criticisng the USA is not equivalent at all to being anti-American; yet there are some dishonest posters here who will claim exactly that.

What do I think of Oliver's over-stretch when it happens? I think it's junk. But one thing I've noticed; Oliver extremely rarely gets abusive, unlike many of those dumping unfairly and dishonestly on him. And of course they prove very well that Oliver is hardly alone in over-stretching.
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Well thought out post. I hope, being a new member, I haven't been abusive to anyone here and if I have please call me on it. Americans are used to criticism. We face it daily, some is valid some is just gratuitous sniping. The United States is Israel's only ally. I am not being defensive when I take the side of the US when I feel the criticism is unfair I am just trying, as best I can, to counter the charges with facts as I know them. Most of the world does not like the United States. That is an empirical fact. Most of the world is very anti-Israel and that is an empirical fact. My point to Oliver is that as of now he has world opinion on his side in regard to the US and Israel. That is sad but that is the reality we live with.
 
Gurdur said:
Do I think the USA deserves criticism? Sometimes. Like everyone else.
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Quite right. However, Oliver seems to think that the U.S. deserves nothing but. Never did anything right, never could; never does anything right, never can; never will do anything right, never will be able to. Just as silly a point of view as the one that the U.S. never does anything wrong.


Darth Rotor said:
Nope. It was not ridiculous. It was a conflict of ideologies on "how will the world work?" You may think it ridiculous in hindsight, but those who were working the problems of the time, both in Moscow and in the West, were deadly earnest about their method prevailing on a global scale.

Nope, it's a different kind of conflict. If you want to say that Bush Team rhetoric is ridiculous, with "Axis of Evil" and "Dead Enders" and some other nonsense, no argument from me.

I grew up in it, and I lived in it, and thanks, I don't need your distilled scheiss to tell me how the East West propaganda war went on, Oliver.

Nope. Where you constructed that fairy tale I am not sure, but it sounds as though you are cutting and pasting Dylan Avery quotes again.

I suggest you buy a black T-Shirt and join his movement, as he also makes bogus claims of a simplistic, stereotypical and over generalized nature.

Fine for trying to impress 17 year old novices, not worth spit when speaking to people with some depth.

DR
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Does anyone know how old Oliver is? He strikes me as one of those born-and-grew-up-twenty-years-after-it-happened-but believes-everything-he-reads types.
 
Elizabeth I said:
However, Oliver seems to think that the U.S. deserves nothing but. Never did anything right, never could; never does anything right, never can; never will do anything right, never will be able to.
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For what it's worth, I get the same impression, and I'm not even an American.
 
Gurdur said:
No, it's not like that.
Oliver can be illogical and over-stretched. But he is more reacting to the idiots here who want to claim that everything Bush does, or Israel does, is right, and the rest of the world is evil and out to get them.
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Please give us a list of the 'idiots' here who make those claims. Please provide evidence to back up that list.

Please give us evidence that Oliver's posts are a reaction to the views of those specific individuals.
 
Elizabeth I said:
Quite right. However, Oliver seems to think that the U.S. deserves nothing but. Never did anything right, never could; never does anything right, never can; never will do anything right, never will be able to. Just as silly a point of view as the one that the U.S. never does anything wrong.
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Yeah, that's about it.

Does anyone know how old Oliver is? He strikes me as one of those born-and-grew-up-twenty-years-after-it-happened-but believes-everything-he-reads types.
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Oliver, it seems to me, believes everything he reads that fits his world view.
 
Oliver said:
I've read the list and I didn't find any major flaws in it. But if Gumboot, who is very critical concerning my world-view, gives me 30%, that's more I ever expected from him. So, yes - I'm happy with that.

BUT: Since I barely know you in contrast to Gumboot, I wouldn't accept the same Statement from you until you point out the flaws in the list.

No one did this so far besides stating things like "Commie-Source", "Zionism-Hater-Source" and some minor complaints. So personally I think it's still valid.
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Oliver this is the second thread that you have posted that list on. The source for this thread is from a communist site and it also shows up on a Holocaust denial site here http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:sKO3NgusAIoJ:www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/actual/recla0504.pdf+%221918-1945:+BREAKING+INTO+THE+MIDDLE+EAST%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
This list is part truth and large part revisionist history. Take the CIA in Iran charge. Prime Minister Muhammed Mosaddeq overthrew the Shah in 1953 coup. Mosaddeq was pro-USSR and nationalized the Iranian oil infrastructure that left the UK holding the bag for billions in investments. The Brits enlisted the help of the US to mount a counter coup to place the Shah back into power. No one ever talks about the coup against the Shah.
http://www.80s.com/Icons/Bios/mohammed_reza_shah_pahlavi.html

That is one glaring example of how revisionist history can be used to distort the past.
 
You guys are funny - go on ...:popcorn1

... but don't expect that I will consider one of you as my personal soothsayer. :D
 
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