Rational Vs. Rationalized Faith

[Roadtoad]

And why does any of this require belief in God or Jesus or any religious doctrine or book???? If you think this is the best way to live presumable that is based on some real world evidence that this leads to real world "positive" outcomes....so again...why do you need a book or a God or a saviour to motivate you to do that which makes "sense" to you?

Obviously it doesn't. There are people who do this sort of work all the time. But if you'll look a little more closely at what I wrote, you'll realize this is supposed to be a central tenet of what makes someone Christian.

I could, I suppose, start listing the Book, Chapter, and Verse which covers all this. I didn't do so out of respect for you. (Again, that was supposed to be another tenet of the Faith. Those I encountered were to be treated with the greatest respect.) My thought was that a Christian had a particular duty to follow this particular... I don't know, discipline?

Having been liberated from sin, you had an obligation, even if it isn't necessarily spelled out, to bring blessings to others. That made sense.

True, I don't need to do this just because God/Jesus says I ought to. This makes sense. Lots of people don't. For me, though, this seemed to be the ideal direction at a time when I had little else really that made my life complete.

(P.S.: Thanks, Yahzi. )

 

[Fun2BFree]

It has always been fairly clear to me that to be a Christian one has to believe in Christ...as you already said...the stuff about Christianity that appeals to you is possible without such a belief...so again it begs the question-what is the point of being a Christian---since this is not getting through from this side either I will spell it out as clearly as I can----If it is it possible to do all those things that you say are central to being a christian without the belief in Christ how can doing those things/behaving in that way be said to be central to being a christian? That cannot be the thing that defines being a christian...

If you keep justifying what is right by what makes sense for your fellow man independent of whether Jesus is for or against it that seems to me to be not the central part of being a christian....If you think that all behaviour is defined as good or bad based on what JC says about it then that is being a christian...Jesus is the way, the truth,etc...all for the glory of GOd or because God says soo....BUT if sense and sensibility and how it affects your fellow man are what guide you -then it ultimately can't be Christianity-if Christ is unnecessary...I won;t quote you chapter and verse but What is that verse in John always showing up at sporting events say about it???

 

[Roadtoad]

It has always been fairly clear to me that to be a Christian one has to believe in Christ...as you already said...the stuff about Christianity that appeals to you is possible without such a belief...so again it begs the question-what is the point of being a Christian---since this is not getting through from this side either I will spell it out as clearly as I can----If it is it possible to do all those things that you say are central to being a christian without the belief in Christ how can doing those things/behaving in that way be said to be central to being a christian? That cannot be the thing that defines being a christian...

Redemption. Plain and simple.

I've made some serious mistakes in my life. Some have cost me dearly. I did not expect that I would escape unscathed, but I thought that at some point, I could be forgiven.

Christianity offers forgiveness. Atheism does not.

I'm not saying I've been forgiven completely by other Christians. Believe me, I haven't. If anything, I've had my past repeatedly thrown in my face.

I'm also not saying that I've not been forgiven by atheists. Oddly enough, atheists tend to be more forgiving than most Christians.

I accept the idea of one God. I can't pinpoint why, but I'm trying to. I accept that there was in history an individual named Jesus who did what has been claimed of him. On that we disagree. You say there is no God, and Jesus was either a local myth, or a fraud. (Bear in mind, the Bible itself leaves out ANY notion that Jesus could simply have been a "good teacher.")

In what I accept, assuming there is an eternity, there is redemption. If God's word is true, then I have been forgiven by Him. If it's false, then the whole thing is a pack of lies, and it's been a waste, but at least I've tried to live a better life than I might otherwise have. True, I could have done so without a religious belief, but I question whether I would have or not. (I know myself too well.)

At some point, I'd like to think that I can redeem my past and make things better for someone else, even if all I can do is grab some kid who's on his way down and try to turn him around. I'd like to do more, but there are no guarantees in this life, regardless of what you choose to believe.

And no, Fun, I'm not here to jam my finger in your face. I've got too much respect for you.

 

[thaiboxerken]

People don't need anything other than themselves to forgive themselves and other people. No gods needed, no jesus or bible needed.

Christianity offers forgiveness while at the same time rendering guilt for the simple act of existing. Christianity teaches that all people are born sinners, and to constantly ask forgiveness for being born.

I don't care what the christian bible says, I won't grovel to some mythical dictator and plea for forgiveness because I exist.

 

[Yahzi]

Christianity offers forgiveness. Atheism does not.

But it does. Atheism has two forms of forgiveness.

One is jail. Once I've done my time, I'm done, and you can go f*** yourself.

The other way atheists forgive is they pay it forward. Whenever anyone has tried to thank me for a good deed, I have always just said: do the same for someone else.

Atheism requires the courage to forgive oneself. It's not easy, but when you add up all the wrongs done to you, it becomes clear that people as a class do a lot of wrong things. The goal is not to not do wrong (because that is impossible): the goal is to own up to what you've done and try to make amends where possible.

I can pretty much forgive anything if your response is, "Ya, I did that, I'm sorry, what do you want me to do about it?" What else can you ask for?

 

[Ladewig]

Redemption. Plain and simple.

I've made some serious mistakes in my life. Some have cost me dearly. I did not expect that I would escape unscathed, but I thought that at some point, I could be forgiven.

Christianity offers forgiveness. Atheism does not.

Christian view:

1. God created Adam and Eve,
2. who committed a very grave sin,
3. so grave that not only were they punished, all their descendents for all future generations are to be punished (including you),
4. but, forgiveness for this sin that you did not commit is available,
5. because the all-loving God had his son murdered for your sake,
6. so, drink some blood and eat some flesh and come on up to Heaven.
   [/list=1]
   
   I was born and raised a Christian and around age 33, I decided I just could hold all these ideas in my head at one time. If believing these six things makes you happy, then I offer you a hearty handshake and I wish you well. Just don't be surprised if some people look at you a bit askance if you try to describe it as rational.

 

[c4ts]

Christian view:

1. God created Adam and Eve,
2. who committed a very grave sin,
3. so grave that not only were they punished, all their descendents for all future generations are to be punished (including you),
4. but, forgiveness for this sin that you did not commit is available,
5. because the all-loving God had his son murdered for your sake.
   [/list=1]
   
   I was born and raised a Christian and around age 33, I decided I just could hold all these ideas in my head at one time. If believing these five things makes you happy, then I offer you a hearty handshake and I wish you well.

1. 
   
   Why do you need to be forgiven for something you didn't do? That's unjust, not to mention in contravention of common sense. Isn't God supposed to be just from the Christian perspective?
   
   However, having recently finished Genesis, I find this God character to be a sadistic bastard who punishes entire cities for little or no apparent reason.

 

[Roadtoad]

People don't need anything other than themselves to forgive themselves and other people. No gods needed, no jesus or bible needed.

Christianity offers forgiveness while at the same time rendering guilt for the simple act of existing. Christianity teaches that all people are born sinners, and to constantly ask forgiveness for being born.

I don't care what the christian bible says, I won't grovel to some mythical dictator and plea for forgiveness because I exist.

I have to admit, Ken: You're rare. You put it out there as you see it without any apology. That, I can and do respect.

 

[Roadtoad]

Why do you need to be forgiven for something you didn't do? That's unjust, not to mention in contravention of common sense. Isn't God supposed to be just from the Christian perspective?

However, having recently finished Genesis, I find this God character to be a sadistic bastard who punishes entire cities for little or no apparent reason.

And now, you're getting to the crux of my crisis...

 

[Loki]

c4ts,

Why do you need to be forgiven for something you didn't do?

It's a little more complex than this nowadays - you aren't apparently 'tainted' with original sin if (a) you die young enough or (b) you haven't heard of the gospels. These special kinds of humans are exempt from the need to pay for original sin. Original sin is sort of a special 18th birthday present from god. As you come 'of age' in any society in which the "good book" is availabe, god says "now I can punish you for events that occured thousands of years ago!" . Thanx god!

-------------------------------

Roadtoad,

And now, you're getting to the crux of my crisis...

I'm not sure if I really understand you - is your crisis "why do I need redemption?", or "why is god apparently so sadistic?"

I've made some serious mistakes in my life. Some have cost me dearly. I did not expect that I would escape unscathed, but I thought that at some point, I could be forgiven.

Christianity offers forgiveness. Atheism does not.

Christianity offers forgiveness in the next world for behaviour in this. Atheism (well, secular humanism) asks you to make amends in this world for behaviour in this. One system I can see and judge for myself here and now, the other I need to take on faith. One system attemtps to produce results here and now, the other doesn't really care.

Perhaps more importantly, does any compassionate person truly believe that if I (a) make a serious mistake in this life, and (b) make amends in this life that (c) I then deserve to be punished in the next? To me, atheism demands more of you now, can produce more results now, and isn't incompatible with a fair and just god!

 

[Ladewig]

Perhaps more importantly, does any compassionate person truly believe that if I (a) make a serious mistake in this life, and (b) make amends in this life that (c) I then deserve to be punished in the next?

Furthermore, even if you don't make amends, do you deserve to be punished for all eternity for this finite serious mistake?

 

[triadboy]

However, having recently finished Genesis, I find this God character to be a sadistic bastard who punishes entire cities for little or no apparent reason.

Yahweh is one of the worst deities in all of mythology.

 

[Yahzi]

Furthermore, even if you don't make amends, do you deserve to be punished for all eternity for this finite serious mistake?

Even Hitler doesn't deserve infinite punishment.

6,000,000 liftetimes of punishment, sure. But not infinite.

 

[Roadtoad]

Roadtoad,
I'm not sure if I really understand you - is your crisis "why do I need redemption?", or "why is god apparently so sadistic?"

Christianity offers forgiveness in the next world for behaviour in this. Atheism (well, secular humanism) asks you to make amends in this world for behaviour in this. One system I can see and judge for myself here and now, the other I need to take on faith. One system attemtps to produce results here and now, the other doesn't really care.

Perhaps more importantly, does any compassionate person truly believe that if I (a) make a serious mistake in this life, and (b) make amends in this life that (c) I then deserve to be punished in the next? To me, atheism demands more of you now, can produce more results now, and isn't incompatible with a fair and just god!

I knew there was a reason I liked you, Loki. (And I just thought it was your sig!)

Your view of Atheism is compassionate, and kind. This was what I assumed Christianity was supposed to be, that we were to go beyond the law itself, and to the heart of what God's Laws were intended to create. In other words, you were to reach out to other in compassion, (remember, Scripture is clear that an Israelite was to treat the Sojourner in the land with respect and kindness), because you're not going to be here forever. Or, as said elsewhere, you get one life, and then the Judgement.

I was not a compassionate person prior to accepting Christianity. I could give my excuses for that, but they would be just that: excuses. Most of them would be worthless. From what I recall reading, I am to forgive in this world, because what I bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. Considering all the filth I've dumped on others in my life, I would just as soon leave that behind, thank you, and not just in the next life, but in this one as well. I would just as soon, should I ever get the chance to do so, be able to buy a round for those I knew in the past, and be able to look back on the errors of the past and go beyond them, rather than have that weigh anyone down in any way, shape or form.

I'm speaking from some experience here, in part because of a scoutmaster who got his kicks groping kids. (Who, by the way, was supposedly straight. Yeah, sure. Let's keep out gays from the Boy Scouts. That'll fix things! Dumbasses....) Hard as hell to let go of that in this life, much less for the next.

But I've had to. In part, because my parents at the time chose to ignore me, ("How could you say that about a colleague and friend of you father's!"), and now, no one knows where the SOB is anymore. In another part, because I had a son who was molested, and he needed me to be 100% for him. I had to put this on the back burner, and had to move on so I could be an asset to my son, rather than a liability. I also had help in this: my wife went through this, too, as a child.

This is not an easy subject. But this should be covered. And no, I don't have an easy answer for any of it.

On another note, this thread has gotten to the point where I practically need another day or two from when someone's posted before I answer. There's a lot to chew on here. Hope you don't mind. As I keep saying, I'm here to learn, not so much to chatter.

 

[Yahzi]

no one knows where the SOB is anymore

And that's where you get your redemption. You look in the mirror and say, "But I'm still here: I'm not hiding: and if anybody calls me to account for what I have done, I will own up to it."

There isn't anything more you can do, and there isn't anything more you should do.

 

[Roadtoad]

And that's where you get your redemption. You look in the mirror and say, "But I'm still here: I'm not hiding: and if anybody calls me to account for what I have done, I will own up to it."

There isn't anything more you can do, and there isn't anything more you should do.

And reading this just brought tears to my eyes.

Damn you, Yahzi.

 

[St_Hereticus]

I may not like the fact that my earliest ancestor had a small brain, and that he/she spent a great deal of time trying to figure out how to keep from being eaten, but that's what the facts say happened.

I have never understood why it should make any difference whether our hominid (and other) predecessors had "smaller brains". I had a smaller brain when I was born, yet I in no-wise rue the fact; it's just the way the universe works, since I couldn't spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus!

 

[St_Hereticus]

I'm still working on it. It's not perfect, but I'm trying.

I'll put it like this: If I read a verse that makes sense, in light of what I've learned from other sources, then that's something I consider "rational." If archaeological evidence says there was a Jericho, and that certain events happened at that site, then, when I read through the Bible, that which jibes with what evidence has revealed is what I hold to. The rest of it, you lay aside.

So why use the Bible for anything at all? Why not simply depend on these other sources in the first place, since the Bible is so unreliable without these other sources? Even if the Bible does contain some historical accuracy (such as the names of ancient towns, etc.) that doesn't provide any indication of reliability. For example, I've just finished a book by Koontz that mentions Los Angeles, San diego, Santa Barbara, Lake Tahoe, and several other locales that I know do exist, but I can't therefore conclude that any of the plot details actually occured.

 

[Fun2BFree]

Road toad

what has happened to you and your life is terrible and I would wager that the SOB who molested was not an atheist...likely a God fearing Christian...because the problem is not in what you think it is in how you think--and faith based beliefs are founded on accepting what is in a book or your head or some combination and that way leads to abuse...

That you are still here is what it's all about---

We go on. Knowing there is no afterlife, no judgement, no big rulemaker in the sky to make it all right...we go on.

 

[St_Hereticus]

Roadtoad, you might get some insight from George Smith's book, Atheism: The Case Against God. He includes an excellent discussion of "rational faith".