Rational case for Vegetarianism/Veganism?

Tsukasa Buddha

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Tsukasa Buddha
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According to Cornell ecologist David Pimentel, animal protein demands tremendous expenditures of fossil-fuel energy—-about eight times as much for a comparable amount of plant protein.

...

The meat industry is a major cause of fresh water depletion.
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Linky.

Cattle grazing is a serious threat to endangered species, both in the western United States and in the rainforests of South America.

In the United States, grazing has contributed to the demise of 26% of federal threatened and endangered species.[1]

...

The situation is no better in South America where the rainforests are being destroyed at an alarming rate in order to clear the land for cattle grazing.

According to the United Nations, ranching-induced deforestation is one of the main reasons for the loss of plant and animal species in tropical rainforests.[2]
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Linky.

A groundbreaking 2006 United Nations report found that raising animals for food generates more greenhouse gases than all the cars and trucks in the world combined [1].

Luckily, we can help fix this problem by changing our diet.

According to a 2006 study done by researchers at the University of Chicago, most Americans can reduce more greenhouse gas emissions by becoming a vegan than they can by switching to a hybrid electric car.

They found that eating a vegan diet prevents the equivalent of 1.5 tons of CO2 emissions every year, more than the 1 ton of CO2 emissions prevented by switching from a typical large sedan to a Toyota Prius [2].
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Linky.

Factory farms produce run-off that pollutes our streams and rivers, endangering not only the water supply for humans but also harming delicate eco-systems.

A U.S. Senate Agricultural Committee report concluded, “The threat of pollution from intensive livestock and poultry farms is a national problem.” [1]

According to the EPA, over 200 manure discharges and spills from U.S. animal farms between 1990 and 1997 have killed more than a billion fish.[2] Animal feedlots can contaminate nearby well water with high levels of nitrates, which have been linked to miscarriages in humans as well as “blue baby” syndrome in infants.[3]
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Linky.

So I saw an advertisement for this website on the train and thought about checking it out. Of course, it has the scary videos of how we get our meat products. But it also has the information above that I have heard alluded to in other sources as well. And don't miss the statistics that are to the left of the text.

So is this a rational case for vegetarianism/veganism?

To me this is very compelling. Of course, I had a slight pro-vegetarian bias from the start in that I naturally dislike the taste of meat :p .

(I am not a vegetarian, but this has got me interested)

And, to go to a further eco-nut level, what about enforcing a tax to discourage the behaviour? I mean, wouldn't they be effected by a greenhouse gas tax?

Or to go in the animal rights extreme, should this treatment of animals be banned?

Of course, this isn't to imply that the animal rights concerns aren't rational, it is just that this data is more concrete and objectively suitable for analysis. And science is cool.

Also, they have health statistics, but I don't buy them so readily. I have studied statistics, so I know how easily they can be misconstrued :p .
 
Try it. See if your body likes it.
Few people can do Vegan without protein supplements, and it's contraindicated in a most obvious way for growing children.

More people can do a vegetarian diet that includes some dairy.

I was a vegetarian from age 16 to 50.
At about 50 I began to feel I needed some, lets say, preprocessed protein, as my digestive system just ain't what it used to be.
Once a week I eat a fish or poultry item. I still don't consume pork or beef.

Most of the environmental damage you referenced comes from clearning rainforest land for growing cattle feed or for cattle ranches. You don't have to sacrifice your nutritional needs for for the environment. Just make better choices about what and how much animal protein you consume.
 
Good post tsukasa - I've often considered going veg for just those reasons. Sometimes I think I really don't have any justification not to do so, and yet, here I am, still eating meat...

On the other hand, I think that the more you do (ie. the less meat you consume) the less your impact. It's certainly not an all or nothing decision. And like apathia says, I think the best first step is to cut beef out of your diet. One can make a major impact just from that. After that, eating less meat/meal, and including it in fewer meals is also valuable.

Great, you've made me start thinking about this again...
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
Linky.



Linky.



Linky.



Linky.

So I saw an advertisement for this website on the train and thought about checking it out. Of course, it has the scary videos of how we get our meat products. But it also has the information above that I have heard alluded to in other sources as well. And don't miss the statistics that are to the left of the text.

So is this a rational case for vegetarianism/veganism?

To me this is very compelling. Of course, I had a slight pro-vegetarian bias from the start in that I naturally dislike the taste of meat :p .

(I am not a vegetarian, but this has got me interested)

And, to go to a further eco-nut level, what about enforcing a tax to discourage the behaviour? I mean, wouldn't they be effected by a greenhouse gas tax?

Or to go in the animal rights extreme, should this treatment of animals be banned?

Of course, this isn't to imply that the animal rights concerns aren't rational, it is just that this data is more concrete and objectively suitable for analysis. And science is cool.

Also, they have health statistics, but I don't buy them so readily. I have studied statistics, so I know how easily they can be misconstrued :p .
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Taste is the problem for me - most meats taste better than most plants (exceptions in both directions) and I am a very good cook so I can do a lot with spices, sauces and such (a good bit reduced if dairy/egg included) - but not enough to actually give up meat (anyone who thinks a toffuti burger/turkey tastes like - ot better than- the real thing has a taste bud problem). I do not argue the health point of a diet rich in plant life and low in meat though.
 
I agree that in some ways, vegetarianism is better for the enviornment, better for animals and possibly better for you.

However, I think that eating meat is what nature intended for us, don't believe that animals- who regularly kill and consume each other- should be treated as being above the food chain and love food too much to give up half to two-thirds of it.

And some vegetarians/ vegans really annoy me.
 
In many areas of the UK where sheep are raised it is land that we can't use for food crops so in those terms the sheep are the most efficient means we have of using that land to produce food.
 
My ancestors didn't spend thousands of years fighting their way to the top of the food chain so that I could eat tofu and vegetables.

On a more serious note, I now work in a job that involves a fair amount of hard physical work here and there. In order to be strong and healthy enough to do this work, I need protein and nutrients which are not easily obtained from non-meat sources.
 
bacteria can save us from this dilemma.
any flavor you want; cheap to produce.
 
Is there a vegan source for Carnitine?

I don't know, I'm just asking. It seems that we do absorb some proteins intact, not just by breaking them down into amino acids. Some folks with various diseases must supplement with particular proteins, which makes me wonder if those proteins are available in veggies? I doubt if Carnitine is the only one, it's just one I take. It's needed for the mitochondria to function. Perhaps there ARE essential proteins, not just essential amino acids?

Anyway, I believe that eating a wide range of food is the best 'balanced diet'. Just for the random chance that you may NEED something in that particular food. Eat some yellow fruit, some green leafy veggies, and some red meat. Damn, next thing I know, people with be falsely accusing me of not only being a murderer, but also being a member of the Rainbow Coalition.
 
From such research as I've done, I recall the following points.
Yes, the production and processing of large quantities of meat is very demanding. Not only do most meat animals eat things that humans do, they produce lots of waste products that are difficult to handle and plenty of greenhouse gases as well.

However....

A healthy vegetarian diet requires a lot of work and planning. It's often necessary to consume large amounts of very different plant foods in order to obtain the required nutrients.
Such diverse agriculture is not generally available to much of the world. Meat provides a nice, compact, nutritionally-rich package to fill in the gaps.
That's indeed the diet of much of the world; large amounts of "staple" grains with such small amounts of meat as can be obtained.

The anthropologist Marvin Harris noted in his little book "Good To Eat" that much of the world is both "meat hungry" and more essentially, "fat hungry". I believe it was Russian premier Gorbachev who said, "If I could put 2 kilos of meat on the average Russian table per week, we wouldn't have any social unrest."

The Chinese, long noted for the almost entirely vegetarian diet of the peasantry, are now becoming affluent enough to buy meat, and are doing so with gusto. I just listened to interviews with a farming family who were so poor previously that they could only eat the poorest of grains. Now, they can afford meat on a weekly basis.
Ditto for the Indians...

Vegetarianism has not historically been a matter of choice; it's a matter of poverty. Meat has always been a sought-after and desired commodity. The same Harris mentioned above talked at length about the "Potlatch" (large, generous feasts thrown by the chief or "big man") practice of many primitives. The commodity given away by the big man to his followers? Meat.

Bottom line? Vegetarianism in developed countries seems to be associated either with morality or with concerns about health, the environment, and so forth. The consumption of meat most everywhere else is more a matter of survival.

And not without historical precedence. Our primitive ancestors ate meat; and lots of it. In fact, anthropologists theorize that it was this improvement in diet that may have spurred brain growth....
Even our cousins, the chimps, eat meat whenever they can get it; they do hunt and kill small animals and eat the critters with gusto.

Converting society to vegetarianism may be desirable, but certainly would be an uphill road.
 
Bikewer said:
Our primitive ancestors ate meat; and lots of it. In fact, anthropologists theorize that it was this improvement in diet that may have spurred brain growth....
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Doubtful. To eat large quantities of meat, we needed to hunt. To hunt, we needed weapons. To have weapons, we needed tool use. To make and use tools, we needed brain growth.

But the idea of our ancestors sneaking up on small furry animals and strangling them with their bare hands does amuse me.
 
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The oldest and largest civilizations were, and still are, predominant veggie eaters. China, Japan, and India are not hunter gatherer societies. They are very old vegetarian societies.

Yes, there is fish near the oceans, as well as other seafood, but no animal husbandry. Same for China, where animal protein was a minor factor.

Rice is the reason for these civilizations. Much like corn was the reason for Mesoamerican cultures, which are not around, but were vast at one time.

Most people on the planet still live off of rice or corn. Maybe potatoes and millet. Not animal protein.
 
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Bikewer said:
A healthy vegetarian diet requires a lot of work and planning. It's often necessary to consume large amounts of very different plant foods in order to obtain the required nutrients.
Such diverse agriculture is not generally available to much of the world. Meat provides a nice, compact, nutritionally-rich package to fill in the gaps.
That's indeed the diet of much of the world; large amounts of "staple" grains with such small amounts of meat as can be obtained.
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That may be one of the more convincing arguments that I've heard for not jumping into vegetarianism full force. However, since diverse agriculture is available to those of us in the US, for example, it's not impossible to do. In fact, I have a friend who tried veganism is large part for the challenge. (She's doing great with it now, almost 6 months later.)

I could never give up delicious sushi, but I am trying to cut meat out of my diet and be much better with my fruits and veggies. Is there really something to be said, however, for focusing on free-range chicken, organic foods, etc? I do hear so many positive things about those (good for the environment, good for your health, etc) but I wonder what unforeseen, or unadvertised, negative effects there may be.

I do like local produce, however. You can't argue with high gas prices. And the food lasts much longer!
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
Quote:
Cattle grazing is a serious threat to endangered species, both in the western United States and in the rainforests of South America.

In the United States, grazing has contributed to the demise of 26% of federal threatened and endangered species.[1]

...

The situation is no better in South America where the rainforests are being destroyed at an alarming rate in order to clear the land for cattle grazing.

According to the United Nations, ranching-induced deforestation is one of the main reasons for the loss of plant and animal species in tropical rainforests.[2]
Linky..
Click to expand...

Clearly meat is veRy bad.

We need to all work together to solve this - it will take a while -

cow by cow, pig by pig, hamburger by hamburger, sausage by sausage...

it is possible to bite into it.:D
 
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